Bullet penetration (and a few other things)

Here’s a suggested change mostly about gunplay and ammunition.

So first of all, I think bullet penetration should be implemented. Walls, wood, glass, fences, etc should be able to be shot through, and both players and enemies should be able to utilize this. Simplified, going through one layer of material (a wall) can reduce the bullet velocity/damage by half, two walls by another half (or 75% overall damage reduction), and should not penetrate at all through two walls. If you wanted to do it realistically, it would depend on the weapon and/or the caliber of the ammunition. So perhaps an n19 can’t penetrate a wall, but a hunting rifle can, and a p90 can shoot through 2. All weapons should be able to shoot through glass with little or no penalty.

The way enemies should engage with this is that if you run into a building during combat, you should still be in danger of getting shot (but with reduced damage). They still can’t see you so will de-aggro after the same amount of time, but if they can hear you then they shoot in your general direction. Best chance of survival is either to quietly leave through a different exit or hit the deck, go prone on the ground and hunker down until they lose interest. Or shoot them back if you think you can kill them before they can kill you (assuming your weapon can maintain enough damage through a wall to still be effective).

There should still be plenty of impenetrable surfaces. Rocks, stone/brick structures, reinforced metal doors, etc. For gameplay reasons it’s important that trees remain impenetrable, but all other surfaces (within reason) should have penetration.

This next part is more of a wishlist, but it has to do with guns so I’m adding it here. Ammunitions and weapons need to have their weights reassessed. They don’t need to be strictly speaking realistic, but when individual rounds are physically smaller they should weigh less, and same goes with guns. This is not a huge gameplay priority though, more of a finer polish.

I would personally also love it if individual empty magazines became a loot item, and that it was necessary to load individual magazines at the PLUNDRA or the consumables crafting station before going out on expeditions.

This shouldn’t impact the weight too much, but they should have a small amount of weight to them. Instead this would be meant to be a way to make players think more strategically about how much ammunition they bring, and to have another strategic decision to make in terms of reloading a magazine mid-combat. Early and mid-game you probably won’t have enough magazines for your auto and semi-auto guns to constantly spray and pray at enemies because you’ll empty them mid-fight. So in that way it’s also a subtle mechanic that encourages players to slow down and make meaningful decions about combat, stealth, and general survival.

In my opinion, any gameplay scenario that forces you to retreat (even momentarily) is a good gameplay scenario and is a big part of what makes this game stand out from others like it. This wouldn’t prevent people from becoming somewhat overpowered mid-to-late game, but that’s not the point. You’ll eventually be able to have enough individual magazines made for all of your individual guns that you trivialize this mechanic, and that’s the reward you get for slowly conquering the scarcity aspect of the open world over the course of your playthrough.

I have a short closing remark. I genuinely believe that the suggestions I propose would improve the gameplay overall and reinforce what already makes the game great. I’m not the kind of person that thinks it needs to be more hardcore/realistic and I’m also not the kind of person that wants to make it super casual and COD-like. I think that Generation Zero has this wonderful balance of being pretty hardcore already while still having very little tedium, being easy to jump into, and even allows you to feel very powerful from time to time. I see a lot of feedback from people who want to radically change the game in either of those two directions. I think Generation Zero has merits of its own as it currently stands, and that drilling down into what exists already is a much better way of going about improving it.

Thanks for reading my post!

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Bullet penetration - Maybe, but doubt the AI in game would handle it in a good way.

Magazines - No, no and one more no. This would add nothing to improve the gameplay. The machines can take to big of a beating even with perfect aim to not make this mechanic totally annoying. Even worse with the hordes of machines in some areas.

That kind of mechanic works great in games like squad where the things you shot at die with one or two well placed shots, not when combating walking tanks.

If you want a magazine management simulator play something else.

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Hi. Just a few words…

  1. Penetration
    I like the idea in general. There should already be different surfaces defined, as there are different sounds when they get hit.

Some of the wooden fences (the small ones) already are penetrateable. They are even destroyable.

Glass is penetrateable and destroyable, too (in general). Well, there are some special windows you can’t shoot through, but there in general you can’t even look through.

For some other materials I had the feeling that at least the exp PVG is able to shoot through, but I’m not sure. You can at least shoot through multiple machines at a time with it. I really love shooting at hunters or lynx if they are in a row behind each other.

Sometimes I destroyed 3 lynx with just one shot.

  1. Weight
    I totally agree that weights have to be changed, especially for the weapons. For ammo I actually don’t know if there aren’t already differences. I would have to compare for example 1000 rounds of each. Idk.

  2. Magazines
    That’s a point I personally don’t like, as there would be just more useless micromanagement. And I currently see no advantage for the game or the immersion with that.

“Oh shit, I’ve got 3.000 bullets for my AG4 in backpack, but no more single magazine. I wish I could use the ones of my .32 for it, I’ve got 300 left…” :wink:

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To be fair, how many rounds of ammunition can one person reasonably carry?

The introduction of magazines would, I think, only be a great hindrance in the first half of the game where you’re still looting for ammunition by necessity anyways. I personally play solo in offline singleplayer, guerilla difficulty, and I play very stealthily/tactically. As a result, I have a lot more ammunition than I need at any given time for almost every gun I own, and it happened rather quickly simply by virtue of firing my gun less often than maybe the game expects me to. I also use placeables and traps a lot, so that might be why.

In any case, I think magazine management is more of a speedbump than a true obstacle to the gunplay and I think that’s appropriate for this game.

This is not a tactical shooter, the devs did not intend it to be one.
Me and many other are not here for a tactical shooter experience.

Magazine management is more than a speed bump.
You have to spend the first part of the game just finding mags, then when you have found them you have to manage them, filling them keeping track of them.
How many mags would be allowed?
A swedish combat load of 7,62 was ~200, that gives you 10x20rnd mags. Is that the limit? Yeah just a speed bump when facing something like the reaper :stuck_out_tongue:
When refilling you would have to fast travel to safe house, spend time filling the mags ( :nauseated_face: ) then go back to the fight to continue…and then repeat…fun

And like you write, if you wanna play this game just sneaking around and not fighting you are free to do it, you have already done it.

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Of course you’re right, but it doesn’t matter for this game, as you need much ammo…for some weapons more than for others. And if you would have to have an empty magazine for each of your bullet types it could be an obstacle.

Imagine getting out of empty magazines, but having tons of bullets. You can’t use the bullets so you’re forced to use a weaker weapon or one you don’t have as many bullets for…

Now you go out trying to farm empty magazines. You probably die more often or need more healthkits because your ttk (time to kill) has grown. You probably find not the magazines you look for. Your ammo count maybe rises due to your farming, but you probably loose more of your magazines for the weaker gun. So you have to switch to other weaker weapons… And so on…

Now I’ve written so much and just hope I didn’t missunderstood the intention.

Otherwise:
Replacing the bullets by magazines could make sense. Instead of carrying for example 3.500 bullets of 7.62 you could have 50 magazines for the AG4 and 10 for the KVM59. That would make the ammo not exchangeable anymore but it would be easier/faster to transfer them from or to your plundra.

The attached magazine expansion would determine how many bullets you can get out of your magazines.

But otherwise there would then be just more different ammo types to manage. You even would have to decide wheather to craft 7.62 for your AG4, the AI76, the N60 or the KVM59.

:man_shrugging:

I don’t hate the idea of looting full or partially full mags instead of loose bullets. You’d still have to manage partially full magazines somehow. Unless you just wanted to treat magazines as “units” of ammo that can’t actually be refilled, only emptied by gunfire.

Of course you’d still need some ammo to be loose, where the weapon doesn’t use magazines/clips/drums. This would present a balancing issue with loot tables though, if all ammunition was found in full mags.

On your point about forcing players to use weaker guns: yes, that is an intended consequence. Say you somehow find yourself in a situation where you have zero magazines so you can’t use your existing bullets. Lets ignore the fact that you can loot containers all over the place and probably find one you can use easily enough (I imagine they’re scarce but not particularly rare, like most weapon mods in the game).

If you somehow cannot use any of your guns, you are now in the wonderful position of having to adapt to using a melee weapon. Being forced to adapt to a new situation is fun, and it gives a purpose to weaker weapons on a meta level. I can (and do) choose to use certain weaker weapons sometimes because I like them, but adapting to scaricity means being able to do a lot with very little. I’m not a fan of obsolescence in videogames, I think weapons should all have a usecase where they can shine.

Adding a speedbump like magazines simply holds back the more powerful, more automatic weapons long enough to let other weapons shine, and that’s the point for me anyways.

Okay well then we can just make magazines refillable anywhere, and have the ui to refill them be super simple. Like press a button, select how many magazines to fill (the upper limit relying only on how many bullets you’re carrying x how many magazines you have on you) and then instantly you have however many you want.

This is still pretty cool because if you run out you still have to retreat briefly to hide behind a rock or something so that you can refill your magazines. Maybe heal up while you’re at it. Rush back in after the 10-20 seconds it would take. Sounds fun to me.

Not here for doing inventory management or fiddling in menus, if you play the game with out maneuvering or using other stuff than guns then the game punishes you already.

Having to scroll thru menus and filling mags is not what this game needs.

You are looking for features that are very well suited and implemented in other games, but trying to duct tape them to GZ is not a good concept. It will not improve the gameplay. Like I wrote earlier, look at what games use the mechanics you are suggesting and compare what you are fighting there with what you are up against in this game then I hope you will see why they have it and other games dont have it.

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I stand by the argument in my post.

Not necessarly. What if you would just loose the ammo of partially full magazines? Some other games use that, too.

That could prevent or punish you for reloading the weapons after every few shots.

BUT: At least on consoles there would be a difficulty in the controls, as the reload and the action key are the same: so everytime you make an action (open door, loot machine/box,…) you automatically reload your gun… And would loose the remaining bullets in the magazine.

I’m on Ps4 and that would be a lot of lost bullets. It would be anoying as hell. The game is not so realistic we can carry around 80 car batteries so why making ammo management realistic when the other stuff is not?

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It’s not about realism. It’s about player decisions. Having mechanics that make you think about in-the-moment gameplay choices are generally fun and compelling. Prevents gameplay from becoming mindless, which eventually just becomes stale.