Change specing down trees

Feedback/Feature Requests
1

The way you have to build down a tree I don’t find satisfying. The way it was done may be for balance reasons but I have an idea on how to change skill specing down a specific tree.

As of right now you pick a tree and put one point in each skill to build down to the next skill in that tree and keep going in sequential order. (you need Stam amount in order to get Sprint speed etc.) This system works fine, but I feel that if I put 2 points into stam amount I should be able to put points in carry amount.

I propose that if you put multiple points in a single skill it should still continue build further down the tree (similar to how specing in Borderlands works). This would make it so you don’t have to sacrifice higher numbers in one skill just because you want to build down a tree.

It could also be changed so both trees in each category (Combat, Support, Survival, Tech) can be built down together. For example; for the support trees you’d have to choose between stam amount or stam regen (whatever you don’t choose becomes locked). After you start specing you gain access to health amount and sprint speed no matter what you chose. Changing the skill trees like this would require the skill trees to have to change. You’d want to make in a meaningful decisions but not such a high stakes decision that if you mess up you’re screwed or miss out on an important/near mandatory skill.

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For all intents and purposes, GZ is far more similar to 7 Days To Die than Borderlands. In 7D2D, you also have to unlock prerequisite skills to get access to different, more useful skills. E.g if i want to unlock Turrets Syndrome in 7D2D, i have to sink 6x skill points into Intelligence, spending total of 7x skill points. Or if i want to max out Lucky Looter (lvl5), i have to sink 7x points into Perception beforehand, spending total of 12x skill points.

Current skill system in GZ forces you to actually think and plan your build beforehand. Also, you can read what every skill does before unlocking it. And if you want to try out different skill build, you can make a new char (up to 4x).

There would be only 2x things i’d change in current skill system:

  • Change placements of some skills. E.g: put Enemy Flanking skill below Enemy Marking skill, so that solo players who find marking useful don’t have to unlock useless prerequisite skill.
  • Ability to respec your char ONCE when you reach char max level. This way, you have one chance to set your skills right.

But what i’m not okay with, is taking some other game mechanic (Borderlands) and putting it in here since “someone” doesn’t like that GZ isn’t carbon copy of Borderlands.

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I’m not asking for a borderlands carbon copy, but I want to experience all this game has to offer and I don’t have the time to level grind a brand knew character just because I want to try out a new skill. I used Borderlands as an example because it’s a game I’m familiar with, and allows for multiple different play style options on one character.

I like that I have to be smart with my skill points in GZ, that’s why I offered some ideas to prevent respecs from being spamable (i.e. cool downs). But as someone who didn’t do any research about character building for GZ outside of reading the skills I find that being screwed over because I didn’t look outside the game to figure out that Hacker is useless.

There are plenty of ways that skill specing could be implemented and reimplemented, but I find GZ to be very unforgiving for the players that want to be able to try as much of the game as possible without having to put a ridiculous amount of hours in.

Post has been edited to remove profanities. Keep it civil while on the forums.
/Mod

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@bubbaconor
I would rather suggest to leave respec where it is right know, and fix that tree, actually.
Also make Doc far more viable.

But that would be me.

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There are games that can be finished within 20 gameplay hours and then there are games that take 200 gameplay hours to finish. GZ is the latter type which takes plenty of time to finish.

If you don’t want to waste your precious time on a game that takes that much time, then there are two choices: either don’t bother to waste your time on it or speedrun through the game in 2h, like seen here: Generation Zero Speedrun 2:15:58

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The notion of “speed run the game or don’t play” is ridiculous. I was putting out Ideas to make the game more accessible in it’s entirety to people who can’t put 200+ hours into a game just because they want to try a spotting skill, or try and fill a medic roll.

Quit with your elitist “if you’re not a hardcore GZ player like me you’re wrong” BS.

Some of us have other game we’d like to play and a life to take part in. Free time isn’t abundant for everyone, and the notion that someone shouldn’t be aloud to experience the full game because they can’t dedicate several days of game time to is selfish, and ignorant.

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Like i said, some games are shorter while others are longer and if you don’t have the time, don’t play those games that require a lot of time and effort.

There are people here who can play 2h per day. Some people can play only on weekends (due to work/school) and i don’t see them complaining about lack of time. Sure, the less time you have, the less progress you get as time moves onwards but that’s how it is with some games. One of the biggest such time hoggers, that come to my mind, is Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

But for devs to change the game for you since you don’t have the time sounds very selfish. Is it the devs fault that you don’t have enough time?

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You guys are of essentially different opinion. Sometimes it is ok to agree to disagree.

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It isn’t the devs fault, I never claimed it was. I put out some Ideas that I thought would make the game more user accessible. I never had the expectation that the game would be changed just because I asked; and if the game did change I didn’t have any expectation that my ideas be used. I offered the ideas to get people to think about a new topic. Get the people that may have different ideas than me to voice their opinion.
I didn’t voice my ideas to have some elitist spew his “hardcore gamer ideals” towards me just because they think that people that can’t dedicate obscene amounts of time to GZ shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy or even play the game.

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I can’t deny the fact that Aesyle sometimes is very specific and passionate about this game. But you, bubbaconor might want to accept that most people appreciate a rich game. And there is always the option to go only for the main missions. Everything else (side missions, collectibles, special weapons etc.) is actually optional.

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saying this was also optional, but he decided he wanted to be rude instead of leaving his input like any other decent human being.

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What @pegnose said makes a good point. If you’re going to disagree with eachothers’ opinions, then do it respectfully. That’s the name of the game around here. You’re free to defend a game that you enjoy passionately, but try to do it in a friendly manner.

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What annoys me are those people who have played some other game and the mechanics in there are what they are used to. Then they come here (GZ) and since game mechanics are different, they cry out about it since in GZ, it isn’t the way like they are used to.

For example: there have been requests to add weapon selection wheel into the game (like the one in GTA V). Since a lot of players play GTA V, that weapon wheel is something they are used to. And now, they also want to see it here.

Making game similar to other game isn’t game evolvement. What makes game stand out from other games is it’s uniqueness (artwork, story, mechanics). And each game uses different mechanics to do something. Some mechanics are smooth and fast while others are clunky and slow. But that sets the games apart.

I value the uniqueness of a game, not how similar it is to other (popular) games. If all games would be similar to each other then what we’d have are carbon copies.

Also, saying that wanting to experience everything but don’t want to spend time needed for long spanning game, is a very poor excuse. It implies towards either poor time management or notion of wanting everything as fast as possible. Latter is more likely since the new (younger) generation of gamers are usually impatient.

Btw, i’m female but i guess that isn’t obvious to everyone, and it’s rude to refer a woman as a male.

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@Aesyle
I fully agree with what you said.
Before bikes and plundra we managed as well, but the community ‘demands it’.
This aside, I feel lost as well, in the requests.
More damage to machines, loot dropping even better/sooner, …

It’s not just that the ‘younger generation’ is impatient, they also seem to want instant gratification, and I have a hard time dealing with that idea.
In the early days of the game, when I killed a Harvey or a Tank, I felt I actually accomplished something.
Now, each victory seems… hollow…

Ah well, it is what it is…

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I think the rivals contribute to that, along with the hunting events. Repeated exposure diminishes the “fear”.

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Like I said, I put out the mechanics from Borderlands because it was something I was familiar with, but I didn’t have the expectation for GZ to copy Borderlands. I was putting the ideas out there to get people to start thinking.

Also “uniqueness” isn’t an excuse for clunky/slow/awkward game mechanics. Everything in a game should flow together smoothly like it was meant to work in that way. Don’t take this as “I think games should copy each other so it’s easier to get used too.” Because that’s not what I’m saying. I think GZ does an excellent job with their UI and gameplay, it might take some people a little longer to get used to navigating the menus but that’s the same with every game. I agree that a weapon wheel wouldn’t be a good move for GZ, but that’s because the weapon swapping system works good as is.

I also wasn’t trying to say that people shouldn’t have to put in the time because they don’t have the time. I was trying to say that if someone does put in the time and experiences one or two skill trees they shouldn’t have to re-put in the time to experience the rest of the skill trees. It’s less about instant gratification, and more about making the time you put in feel more worth while.

I don’t remember when I ever referred to you as male, or if it was even me you’re talking about.

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17

Avalance Studios developed GZ in a such way where:

  • You can’t get all skills unlocked on single char (max what you can get is 30x skill points but there are 48x skills and if you want to max out all skills, you’d need 84x skill points)
  • To give people chance to try out all skills, devs made multiple char system. You can create up to 4x chars, to test out different skill builds (4 x 30 = 120 skill points across all chars).

This system isn’t as fast as it is in some other game. Mainly because leveling up takes time.
Fastest way to level up is to do missions (min 1000 XP per mission or when you have Inquisitive Mind lvl2 skill, min 2000 XP per mission), 2nd fastest is destroying relay beacons (mostly 1000 XP per beacon but some give 1500 XP), leaving combat as the 3rd and slowest way to level up your char.

This is how devs have visioned for players to play their game and so it is.
Also, game mechanics doesn’t have to be smooth and fluid since people are versatile creatures and can adapt to different mechanics. It’s the choice of one if to adapt or not. It is even so in the real world where the world doesn’t change because you want it to. If you want to survive, you have to change and adapt for the world.

Yes, it would be nice if you can experience every game in a timely manner but there are very extensive games out there that take a TON of time and people have played them for years. Skyrim, Eve Online, World of Warcraft are just the few such games. Sure, GZ isn’t as extensive as those MMOs but the world in GZ is still big and it takes lot of time to see everything it has to offer.
For example, it took me 117 gameplay hours in my own pace to finish the vanilla main missions but that’s just one part of the game. World exploration, side missions, collectables, best gear, leveling up, different skill builds - all that takes time as well. Even now i’m not exactly there where i’d want to be, still missing 5* KVMs and from time to time, i come to a place in world that i haven’t visited yet, despite the fact that i’ve played since launch.

Open world games are time hoggers, some more than others and there is little to be done to cut down gameplay time in them. Cut up the open world game and you’re left is either sandbox game (e.g Borderlands 3) or linear game without freedom to move around much (e.g Crysis).
One of the more extensive open world game is GTA V. I haven’t played it but if you have, can you tell me how much time, on average, it takes to complete it 100% and also visiting every place on the map? My guess would be far more than 200 gameplay hours since there’s a lot more in it than there’s in GZ.

Btw, you’re not the only one who was disappointed with Hacker specialization. I too picked it on my 1st char since it sounded good but in reality it wasn’t quite what i expected. Still, Hacker specialization did save my life on several instances. On one instance i used it to turn attacking hunters against each other until one remained with very little HP.

As far as time spent being worthwhile goes, that is individual. If you are used to with short gameplay games then yes, playing long gameplay games can feel a waste of time. In the other hand, if you are used to with long gameplay games, short gameplay games feel too short, leaving you disappointed of game ending that early.
Small comparison: like i said above, it took me 117 gameplay hours to finish vanilla main missions in GZ. In Borderlands 3, it takes 35 gameplay hours to finish the main story (latter source is wikipedia).

Yes, it is you i’m talking about and you referred me as a male (he) in your previous post to this one. Here it is to refreshen your memory with highlights to see better:

:roll_eyes:

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18

The problem with this approach by Avalanche is that there are not enough missions to max out at least two characters. People really like maxing out skill trees, they want their chars to get really good and to benefit maximally from their time spent in terms of in-game QoL. That is a common phenomenon across many, many games.

This directly discourages changing characters mid way (aside from the difficulty reset). And ignoring this fact does not help in the discussion.

Also, the game could be more explicit about the level cap. Sometimes players only notice once it hits them. This breaks their skill tree planning. Communication of how the gameworks (on a meta level, I don’t mean the exploration character of the game that partly extends to in-game mechanics as well -> different topic) is not a strength of Avalanche.

Maybe that would encourage to start planning a second character earlier then after the last mission.

And yes, game mechanics should be smooth, usable. Example: The fact that you cannot use anything directly from the inventory, but you have to equip it first to a hot slot, is questionable, unnecessary item juggling, and takes away from the flow of the game. It also breaks immersion as of course I can open a backpack and use a bandage without putting it into one of the backpack’s mesh pockets first.

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19

I agree with the things you’re saying, like I said in my last reply I think the gameplay in GZ is excellent. Also I started playing GZ after a month and a half of only COD, I didn’t even think of that correlation. So yes I’m used to a faster pace, but ever since I started GZ and played less and less COD I am starting to appreciate the grind more.

Also sorry about the misgendering thing.

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The grind is a classical feature, of course, gives you a little bit of an addiction. But maybe with more time you can also enjoy the beautiful landscape and sometimes calm atmosphere the game can deliver in deserted areas. :+1:

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