Experimental ammo

In another thread we were discussing about ways to encourage players to use more than 2-3 exp weapons as soon as you get them.

I thought it would be good to have this suggestion in a separate thread.

This is what I suggested there:
Something should be done because for example since Pontus got his exp PVG I think 90% of the streams he only uses this weapon until he runs out of ammo.

To increase the use of other weapons when you have exp ones I would rather implement experimental ammo for those weapons. This ammo could be craftable only. Maybe than the supply is not almost unlimited like now and players would use exp. weapons only if necessary. It could also be a way to balance future damage buffs of them.
Probably this would not apply to all Experimentals because not all have special effects. An exception could be the Kpist and the M49. They shoot the same projectiles only faster.
The others have elementar damage, super penetrating bullets or emp effects.

What do you think about that? Do you think that would help the game?

6* .50 cal uses the same ammo as regular .50 cal but it too shoots it faster, hence it’s ability of piercing bullets. Or in other words: if you increase the velocity, you’ll get higher penetration.

6* .50 cal in-game description:

Increased muzzle velocity and penetration.

So, even if you would make the experimental ammo and exclude weapons that doesn’t have elemental damage, 6* .50 cal will still be heavily used by everybody who has it, since it is excluded alongside m/46 and m/49.

The 5* has 0 penetration so the ammo could be made from soft material and the penetrating ones could be hardend material.
That was also just a kind of explaination but since it is a game the devs could just say this weapons uses standard ammo and the other one not.
Especially the 50 cal should have exp ammo in my opinion.

Let’s say exp. Barrett uses special kind of bullets that has better magnetic clutch with coils to have such acceleration. While it still can shoot standart ammo, acceleration effect would be small or even negligent (say, slightly better penetration and/or ballistics), but achieve overpenetrating super-accelerated shot - plz use appropriate ammo.

Same goes for exp. shotgun and it’s flechette ammo. It can fit and shoot standart ammo (as 5*), but it’s primary function is “arming” flechette as it pass through barrel.

Agree with Kpist and CarlG - their function does not concern ammo.

so on and etc.

P.S.: How about making player-issued concussion ammo?

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I think better experimental weapons would be better. I use the sniper and kvm59 all the time. Why cause they do the job. The Krispt runs out of ammo too fast. Went through 5000 rounds in an hour or so. The shotgun and well as the launcher are just worthless. Pistol isn’t too bad, but a 5* bat is better.

I really like the 5* ar. Wish they would make that experimental. He’ll, I wish every weapon in the game came in experimental. But for me the pvg and kvm do the job and I don’t need to carry a lot of ammo, and I can loot enough of those ammo types to keep going.

Hopefully one day they will have experimental mods, all weapons and maybe ammo as well.

You describe exactly why I think we need exp ammo. You get enough ammo for the two strongest weapons in the game so that you dont even care about all others anymore.
If you say instead of nerfing those two with rare ammo but buff all others the next step would be to make stronger enemies because the game became too easy. And than we need stronger weapons again. I say nerf the overly strong weapons and bring them down to the same level as the others.

Variation of your idea would work but it brings big changes:

  1. Remove every experimental weapon from the game.
  2. Instead, replace the experimental abilities with experimental ammo and attachments.
  3. Experimental ammo/attachments can’t be crafted, only found from Rival machine loot pool. And ammo can’t be duplicated with Ammo Packs either.

How it would look like;

  • 6* .50 cal → Railgun rounds, that give the increased penetration when used with all sniper/hunting rifles.
  • 6* AG4 → Incendiary 7.62mm rounds, that can be used with all weapons that shoot 7.62mm.
  • 6* 12G shotty → Flechette rounds, with 100m range and buckshot spread, that can be used with either of the two shotguns.
  • 6* Klaucke → EMP 9mm rounds, that can used by all 3 pistols shooting 9mm.
  • 6* m/49 → Special warhead that has 2 charges in it. There could be variations of them, e.g: HE + EMP, EMP + smoke, smoke + HE.
  • 6* KVM59 → 5.56mm chain-lightning rounds, that can used by all weapons that shoot 5.56mm.
  • 6* Kpist → Weapon attachment that allows Overdrive fire mode, that can be equipped to all SMGs.
  • 6* sledgehammer → Weapon attachment that allows Lightning ability, that can be equipped to all melee weapons.

With this, the experimental abilities would be limited where they can’t be overused and abused as well. But it gives players the freedom of choosing the weapon they prefer the most. E.g: firing incendiary with AI-76 or chain-lightning with AG5 or railgun rounds with .243.

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I would start with a simple approach. Just let all exp weapons as they are now and create the special ammo similare to your description. I would than make that one exp ammo can only be use in one exp weapon.
Railgun rounds ==> only 6* 50 cal
Incindiary 7.62 ==> only 6* AG4
Lightning 7.62 ==> only 6* KVM
This ammo could be craftable only and you get or also drop from tanks and the higher the tier the higher the drop change but only about 10% of the drop rate of other ammo.
At first it would not be necessary that all exp weapons use exp ammo but it would be an opportunity for later buffs.

That was the simple approach.
Further more the devs could make that the exp weapons can use standard and exp ammo. Than the special effect would have to be turned off when useing standard ammo which would be more work of cause. If you change to the standard ammo the damage would be slightly higher than with the 5* weapon.
Than you could on the fly change to the special ammo if you have a tough enemy and switch back when there are only prototypes for example. It would not be necessary to switch your weapon in this case.

Why does everything need to be needed in every game?

I usually don’t have all day to play video games. When u do get the time, I don’t want to waste it using weapons that I don’t like and are weak compared to others and taking forever to kill something.

No matter what they do for some players the game will always be too easy. There are adjustments to difficulty. They can have every gun as an experimental, and yes if your playing on the easiest difficulty it will be easy.

They can’t please everyone.

Also I always have a lot of ammo because I loot everything. I also switch between ammo ( ap-fmj) when one or the other gets low.

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The thing is not whether you or I like it, it is about the game design.
We wanted new stronger weapons ==> devs introduced exp weapons and rivals ==> players were happy
You have twice the damage and kill all regular enemies and an almost unlimited supply of this ammo ==> devs introduced reaper.
The reaper is so strong because every player runs around with 500-1000 50 cal shots and 2000-6000 7,62 mm and blast everything that cant run fast enough.
The original game feeling is compleatly gone.
And the consequence is that other features are compleatly useless. Like for example propan tanks or mines. The enemies became soo strong that the damage of those features is not high enough to kill them. How many propan tanks do you need to only kill an apo hunter? Maybe 30? I dont know, haven’t use them in ages.

Some serious and busy people been spotted playing hardcore military shooters (like ArmA’s or Squad), where you are guaranteed to meet an armored vehicle and all you have is assault rifle. But they still play it, despite rouns being hours. Oh, and they may don’t like guns/equipment that have certain factions, but still have to use it, becase that only options they have.
And if you know where to shoot, it won’t “take forerver” even with “unfavorable” guns. Killing FNIX Tank takes around 60-80 .270 SP on Guerilla. Even less at weaker diff’s. Destroying FNIX hunter takes 5 shots on average with exp. pvg90, but I’ve seen average people spend more than that on the adventure.

You see, I’ve arrived in GZ at Apr’20 patch with buddies (the one with ridiculously deadly machines). We choose from start scaled Guerilla, knowing NOTHING about game. That was… traumatic experience. Which led to “game getting dull, duh” to the point that playing Guerilla with rusty guns to get same thrills. And mostly I see people like overkills playing adventure mode with experimental pvg90+kvm59, sometimes even with scaling disabled. It’s quite rare to see someone playing Guerilla nowadays and lobbys like that, that still has quests are worth to stay for a while.

Same too: “no stone unturned”. And to make game exciting I’m actually spending stuff I’ve been hoarding instead of dropping/recycling.
I have a lot of ammo too, but I’m still usually getting more than I’m spending (even without salvaging skills) if I don’t recycle and I’ve upped the game cycling guns, deciding on specific ammo weight in storage.

Thing about this topic to play game with a bit more variation. If people in most cases ended up playing Vanguard build with only experimental MG+railgun - this is a bad design.

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I hear you there. I agree with what your saying.

I believe I play on adventure, only reasons are you don’t get better drop rates, you don’t get more xp, and on gurilla it just takes to long to kill stuff. Most of the time, I don’t have hours to play a game. So in my short time I don’t want to waste it killing a few machines.

Personally I don’t like the reaper. He’s good to kill if you need experimental weapons but not much else. I have all of those I want.

I also don’t like when games turn enemies into bullet sponges , and the player is squishy as he’ll and call it harder. I call it annoying. Making enemies smarter as you increase difficulty with some additional damage and health is a better way. I’m not a dev, nowhere close so I actually don’t know how possible that is.

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Anything is possible, given that you have enough time, manpower and money. And even if you have all three, you still need to consider if the time spent on implementing this or that is beneficial to the game and players.

For example: if you have two choices, between idea A and idea B, but:

  • Idea A takes 40 work hours to code for 3 devs and benefits about 15% of players
  • Idea B takes 10 work hours to code for 1 dev and benefits about 65% of players

What do you think, which idea devs would choose? A or B? :thinking:

I like the idea of experimental ammo, it fits into the theme and feel of the game, but I would suggest just dropping it into the current system as a pickup from bosses or only craftable at certain places with rare drops from tanks or something. not too accessible and tbh it would be overpowered anyway if I can craft hundreds of edge tech ammo at a bench in a church with some steel and powder I salvaged from 9mm pistol bullets.

imagine having to fight your way into a FNIX facility past hunters and tanks just to make some good ammo at a bench there, a twist on the dungeon raid from mmorpgs.

But I can ehco that once I got my exp pvg90 it has stayed in my #1 slot until I ran out of ammo. if only I could put a red dot on it :stuck_out_tongue:

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I like the idea to have a special work bench which is heavily guarded and also the drop from high tier enemies.
My thought in making it craftable was only to reduce the coding and developing time. They could also make it cost existing ammo types but that would not fit into the current system with the different materials.
Somehting like to craft 10 exp .50 cal bullets you need to use 50 regular .50 cal bullets.

We could also get it from assignements.

Exactly! In this way, the daily missions and especially the weekly ones would have a real meaning. Strongly agree.

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Depends. If idea A brings more to the game, and make it a more interesting I would take that option. We all know it takes money to make money. I have no problems spending money on a dlc if it keeps me playing the game longer and it doesn’t get stale.

Now if option B is let’s say base building, I would diffently go with A.

For me base building killed the game. I havent played it since the 4th. Reminds me of Fallout 4 building, which was crap. Plus I like to build where I want. Not where I’m told.

If I want to build a base I play 7 days to die. I can build anywhere in that game and also build with better materials then wood. That’s what I have been doing since the 4th.

Maybe the next update will bring me back to the game. That will all depend how long that is. So for now Generation zero is put away right beside Fallout 4

Well, base building is optional and you can still play the GZ as usual.

I haven’t played Fallout 4, so i have no clue what’s going on there but i’ve played 7D2D, back in the A18.2. Nice game, especially without zeds. Then again, mechanics in 7D2D are completely different, allowing you to build anywhere (similar to Minecraft).

Base building is not totally optional, you have to participate if you want those experimental ammo schematics.

Thou you can just do easy runs until you have them, and pretty much no need to build base. Just couple walls to protect the truck, to make sure it wont fail.

Well, base building isn’t mandatory. But if you want to have additional content, then, yes, you need to do something for it.

There are other optional aspects in the game:
Assignments → Apex Connect account
Experimental weapons → Rivals
3* and up apparel schems → Rivals
“Mjölnir” → Reaper