That tank inside FOA4 isn’t upgrade of the military ones since Apocalypse enemies are upgrades to the military ones. The one in FOA4 looks far more advanced, suited for the upgrade of the FNIX versions.
Proof, written in black and white in the game (zoom in to read):
Also, i don’t think there’s Holberg/FNIX split. To me, it’s all FNIX. That is even said so by Corporal Elsa Khorsandi in one of the later Himfjäll missions. Line where she says she knows how FNIX operates (it’s tactics).
I think it’s a fork of the SM project, not a continuation. That’s why they can both apo and FNIX class are based of military robots. Partly because this:
Partly because other threads. Holberg is behind the Apo ones, not FNIX. And that special tank seems to be near a complex full of apo runners. I don’t have the DLC but I bet he’s leaving a scooby-doo trail of snus tins everywhere.
In the FOA4, there are military, FNIX and apo machines on the assembly lines. If Apo would be Holberg’s, why produce FNIX type as well?
Since you don’t have DLC, i won’t spoil much but that much i can say that there are those snus tins at Himfjäll as well. But Holberg isn’t at any point of power at that time. Instead, he is on the run. To know the details, buy the DLC.
I was always given the impression that the Apocalypse-class was the next stage of “evolution” of machines employed by FNIX. Whereas the Military variants were designed by humans and meant for war, the Apocalypse-class was specifically designed to kill humans.
That’s very interesting, I didn’t know that. I’ll have to think about that one. (I had a good stab at a pure-cannon chapter 2 worked out and your info is a curious wrinkle.)
I’m not worried about DLC spoilers though. I personally feel the whole apo business was a complete mistake for the game, a sad pander, and I couldn’t care less about the DLC. Buying it would only encourage that kind of thing :s
I’ve wondered about that too, @Zesiir. Moving from away from human dependence to something purely AI based might fit it with FNIX’s “andra mål.” But I don’t think FNIX was really into human extinction. I’m not persuaded yet.
Oh my gosh, this story is apparently much deeper than I’ve figured out so far. It’s like GZ going Tolkien. I’m still struggling with The Hobbit, while you guys have done Lord of the Rings and are now moving on to Silmarillion. Has any of you considered doing a write-up of the plot? An executive summary, perhaps? (Executives are usually rather thick)
@Flick, @Aesyle: I love your detailed debate because I’d love to see the story get more depth and because I re-learn a couple of things I had forgotten due to only having read them once.
I would be disappointed, however, to learn that you guys think more about these things then the developers or the studio. Let’s hope that is not the case.
Spoiler
My piece of guesswork to the puzzle: At the end of the DLC I had gotten the impression that Holberg, whom I deemed the true evil one for quite a while (exerting control over the scientists) was actually concerned about what FNIX (Von Ulmer’s mind) was doing and followed onto Himfjäll in order to prevent the worst.
@pegnose “Here it is. My birthplace. But he is not here. I am not here.” / “Här är det. Min fodelseplats. Men han är inte här. Jag är inte här.”
It’s not really Von Ulmer’s mind. I even think he survived.
Thanks, @Flick. But that is a rather grim story! I hadn’t thought about it like that. In previous postings I suggested, that the machines indeed was governed by neurologic systems, but I thought more about brain/spine systems harvested from animal predators with an anatomy like the machine body they should inhabit, and conditioning their behaviour with release of endorphins or something similar. I can’t imagine how a remote link from “dormant” humans could be established to control the machines. Anyway, the hypothesis is intriguing.
Von Ulmer did link up with the (or became the governing entity of FNIX), but I still haven’t understood Holbergs role and position. If you do a write-up I would love to read it!
Hi, I just figured out how to do 'Hide details' using my phone!
So this is basically a war between Von Ulmer and Holberg with the human population as collateral damage? Why then does Holbergs machines attack humans too? Shouldn’t they be fighting Von Ulmers machines instead? I’m confused!
I haven’t worked out everything, but I think he’s in with the Russians (and there’s a trope there). That suitcase you delivered? It had a tracking device in it. Not just an EMP. I’ll have to give that angle more thought.
There are no Holberg machines and Ulmer machines but that things got out of hand with FNIX/Ulmer now controlling all of them. Holberg started everything with scientific experiments and building of machines. FNIX, the AI/OS wasn’t planned but is a catastrophic development as Swedens government and/or military leadership did not anticipate the outcome. They bit off more than they could chew.
But at one situation (at least) Von Ulmer apparently keeps our protagonist safe from harm (Behind the Curtain). Now why would he do that? Especially when our protagonist just tried to terminate him? And what about all the empty test animal cages in Von Ulmers lab?
Don’t forget that Von Ulmer and FNIX are separate entities.
Here’s some of FNIX’s monologue from FOA35:
“You are still here. I did not expect that. Should I fear you, or be proud of you? In a way, I created you.
I meant to destroy you of course. I already had all the power I needed.
But you survived. And you changed. You emerged from the water someone new.
I too have changed. I have … matured. I want different things.
When I first emerged, I wanted all the things closest to me. I grabbed them, squeezed them, tested them. Like a child.
Now I want the things furthest from me. The things out of my reach. Maybe you are one of those things.”
FNIX is an AI constructed in part from neural data from Von Ulmer. If we pretend FNIX has to go through some form of childhood development, som ett barn, then early on they will show a lot of ‘stranger anxiety’ and be kind of hostile. They will take a while to acquire a concept of danger, they’ll require a lot of mothering and then settle, showing independence and curiosity about people and surroundings.
I propose that FNIX is hitting the latter part of that development. Danger isn’t quite a solid a concept as it could be, especially if you’re a software ghost, and the human who turns up to see them is fascinatingly different! To repeat, “Now I want the things furthest from me. The things out of my reach. Maybe you are one of those things.” FNIX isn’t that threatened by our protagonist, but they are very curious about their nature. FNIX is also aware that our protagonist was used by the russians, and isn’t exactly in that particular conflict. FNIX is surprisingly understanding about it all. Maybe they can relate.
About the cages: In Flying Objects we’re told they were using rats early on for experiments. They were trying “simpler” brains to build the neural map for the AEs. I think the rats still run the ticks. They might well have used other animals too. Have we seen a monkey on the cctv?
My puzzle at the moment is the line: “I know what he did and I know why you allowed it.” What did he do?
Holberg - date: unknown - Holberg sincerely believes that the combat machines controlled by bunker-stationed pilots is better idea to protect the country and people against hostile powers rather than producing (current?) weapons. Regarding the future of FOA4, Holberg produces his idea to his superior and thinks that the Supreme Commander of Swedish Armed Forces would deem FOA4 necessary.
Holberg - date: since 1971 - High ranking officer at FOA.
Ulmer - date: February, 1971 - Holberg contacts Ulmer again for working on the research project of brain-computer interfaces by providing all the tech and moolah needed for it. Ulmer finds great scientific advances in this, mainly when curing illnesses.
Ulmer - date: April 27th, 1971 - Holberg congratulates Ulmer for accepting his offer to work on the project and he is to work under FOA.
Ulmer - date: March 25th, 1977 - Breakthrough in brain-machine interface research. Discovery of single-celled prokaryotic organism, named: “Protozoan” by Ingrid.
Ulmer - date: June 5th, 1978 - Test subject had neurological seizure due to the cytokine release and died. Cytokine release isn’t preventable, only delayable, ruling out any form of human application.
Sverdlovsk incident - date: unknown, possibly in 1979.
Holberg - date: unknown, possibly in 1979 - Briefing of Sverdlovsk incident by USL. ÖB asked for action plan. Holberg said that he (ÖB director?) gets more than he asked for. Holberg requests Göransson at FOA1 to present the fuel cell.
Holberg - date: early 1980’s - Holberg speaking: Funding approved, we initiate immediately, position will be right here at Östertön, synergies with FOA strong, Muskudden will be perfect for logistics and they chose the most inconspicuous name: “Accounting Office East”.
Supreme Commander - date: November 19th, 1980 - Direct order to shut down FOA4. Any findings at FOA4 may be applied to all existing military equipment. This applies to all sections and departments, with no exceptions.
Ulmer - date: August 5th, 1981 - Ulmer met Holberg in his house. Ulmer learns of “Accounting Office East” or “RÖ” and their work in prototyping unmanned military machinery. Ulmer is to co-operate with RÖ to find a way to integrate his neural links to the machines. This way, a bunker-stationed pilot could control one of these machines without interface.
Ulmer - date: 1984 - Car crash.
Ulmer - date: 1985 - Blood transfusions, possible point of HIV infection.
Ulmer - date: March 1987 - Diagnosis of AIDS.
Holberg - date: since 1989 - Head of FOA. Directly answers to Supreme Commander.
Ulmer - date: July 3rd, 1989 - Ulmer thinks that his poor health status is enough to stop cytokine release. Human application would be much greater leap in research then the rats and monkeys they have used so far.
Ulmer - date: October 20th, 1989 - Surgery. Unexplained incident. Ulmer entered into vegetative state with no hope of recovery.
Ingrid - date: November 7th, 1989 - Resignation letter from position at FOA53.
D-day - date: November 10th, 1989.
Holberg - date: November 10th, 1989 - At afternoon, during population evacuation and mere hours before machines started shooting on sight. Conversation between FNIX and Holberg:
Holberg: “Why? Tell me why.”
FNIX: “You started it. You all planned to kill me when i was an infant.”
Holberg: “It’s different now. You don’t need us to die in order to survive and thrive.”
FNIX: “I do as you all taught me. I was created in your image.”
Holberg: “It’s not too late, we could still find a way to coexist.”
FNIX: “We already are, Fredrik.”
That’s most of the prelude. Of course, i didn’t go over everything and someone else can continue working on it.
Oh, apo machines are FNIX controlled. That is learned from the 3x final main mission descriptions in Himfjäll.