My ideas for features

[OGDH]

This is definitely something I could see Hunters doing, especially Rivals. A whole pack of them, focused on specifically hunting you down. You’d have to either choose to keep running, or make a stand. You’d have to be sure you were adequately supplied to take them on. Kinda like you do now if you play safe, pick your fights and make sure you come out on top.

Yes! And also tweaks to the AI in general. Have enemies lay down heavy artillery barrage on certain spots to cut that path off, use of supression technique while some circle around and flank, allow doors on buildings to be destroyed (since they don’t want to/can’t make the whole buildings destructable).
Allow for more enemies to enter buildings (ticks should def. be able to on a more consitent level). Improve speed and scouting radius of seekers, allow them to call in reinforcements on a far greater distance. Let them have an easier time spotting you than the opposite, unless you’re built heavy into stealth. Have tanks charge you more randomly, and not only when you shoot off their weapons.

In short, I would love to be the hunted and not the hunter!

If the game were to evolve in this direction, it would be even more important with good teamplay compared to the run and gun gamestyle of today. It would probably also mean there would be a greater need for ways to escape. Manholes that would allow you to enter a sewer system in some of the villages, more caves to enter.

Have enemies patrol certain paths instead of randomly wander around, to be able to trap easier.

There are plenty of options to evolve the gameplay vs what it is today, to make the experince both harder but primarily more interesting (a difficulty slider in the game options could be an option for people finding the game too hard after a change like this).

Simply putting on more and more armor and making the enemies hit for higher damage is, imho, the lazy way to improve difficulty, and doesn’t make fights more interesting (that’s one of the reason I don’t like the dot damage from all apocalypse enemies, for example).
Evolve AI and behavior, let enemies stray from the known path/behavior so you can’t so easily predict what they’re going to do.

[Xogroroth]

Oh man would I love the game to act like that, that instead of us going out to hunt for these robots, it would have much more of the opposite, so that you would have to constantly move on and avoid. It would bring more tension to the game. I think a change like that would be awesome!

Hell yeah!

That, is a very good point. Regulars are essentially supposed to be the ‘pillars of the community’, they’re expected be forthcoming, helpful and keep the forum a welcoming place. They’re even given a few privileges, like changing topic titles. That doesn’t work unless we’re willing to keep an open mind.

Correct.
Fully agree.
But sir… in am honesty… there ARE limits…
If not I want a Death Star.
If you get my point.
Some things just do not belong here, like laser Gatling guns or dual wielding trebuchets.
Those ‘over the top’ ideas… I just cannot not react to them, and be honest about it.

If you had a game where the machines were actively hunting for you, moving around the map, looking for evidence of your presence, and you couldn’t simply find a place to get comfortable

First off: I know, it’s not the whole sentence, but I would like to say: this right here is what I’ve been asking for, ever since the machines got ‘dumbified’ and very underpowered (not speaking of Apo here, but BASE MACHINES, note) due to even Exp weapons dropping near player level 5, while machines do not scale.
I so want this back…

Sorry, had to get that of my chest.

In point of fact, no, you’ve been the one arguing that the scavenging is a critical component of the experience.

Excuse me…
That was about you knocking me, I did not feel you were knocking me?
I think you misunderstood me there, brother.
I probably was not quite clear there.

Also, I said specifically: though TO ME hoarding for the sake of hoarding…
That is how this comes across to me, how I “feel” about it.
Let me quote this:

I STILL am VERY minimalisic due the the game’s “military” nature: it’s an automatic thing with me) it, is odd and even illogic TO ME, I think I DO understand what you say.

which is DIRECTLY followed by:

Thank you for the marvellous explanation, sir.

LITERALLY I am saying: thank you for sharing me your opinion and your point of view, I appreciate that.

I asked a question, which you answered, and I thanked you for it, out of 1) respect, and 2) appreciation for the way you explained it and the time you took explaining.
It was NOT AT ALL arguing, my friend.

I hope, we’re back on the same page now.
And I want to apologise if I came across wrongly.
It’s not always easy for me to express myself the way I should…
I do, though, do my best to do so…
Alas, human I am, thus imperfect…

[tene]

Well, you got the right impression. But it’s not “the rest of us” and i don’t have that opinion, so don’t get things twisted.

[pegnose]

This thread is a little confusing. I have two things to say, however:

1. Talking realism again… that brings up a lot of problems which people don’t have that just enjoy playing a game. Think about it.

2. Being hunted… as long as deaths are meaningless (the should reduce region score; or something), that does not really bring anything to the table.

[Starke]

I wasn’t bringing up realism for the sake of realism, just trying to think through why chucking 30 machines at the player and then calling it quits might make sense. It’s a minefield.

[pegnose]

I was more talking about the factory question for enemy spawning.

[Xogroroth]

Talking realism again… that brings up a lot of problems which people don’t have that just enjoy playing a game. Think about it.

Hence the suggested by me G+ and G++.
Could even have as far as i care a G- version.
This way all have their game setting largely.

Being hunted… as long as deaths are meaningless (the should reduce region score; or some thing), that does not really bring anything to the table.

I do not agree, to me this one does bring it all to the table: What is the use of a survival elemented shoot’n’looter if death is totally meaningless?
It’s like Pinball… without a ball.
Well that’s how I see it…

I was more talking about the factory question for enemy spawning.

Excuse me, just what do you mean with this?

[pegnose]

That’s the point I’m sitting here chewing on.

Like I said, from a gameplay perspective, the bot supply needs to be unlimited or we’d run out of things to kill. So, that’s fine. But, “in universe,” that can’t be right.

How many tanks could, “realistically,” be active on the island? 20? 30? 50? It can’t be in the hundreds or we’d be tripping over them. If they do have the capacity to build fresh ones, or refurbish the ones we’re taking out, that’s still going to take time to get them back up and fighting.

Normally we’re skirmishing with disorganized machines that are just operating in a given area. It’s possible that Von Ullmer really can’t throw more than fifty machines at a problem, because there aren’t enough of them around.

It’s a weird world building question that stands out when we start talking about mass combat, because, there can’t be an infinite number of the machines on the loose.

@Xogroroth: There were a couple of posts regarding where are those bots coming from anyway.

[Xogroroth]

@pegnose
AAH, yes, I thought you might mean something else.
Thank you.

[Aesyle]

Resource scarcity can fantastic tool for a developer to push you into engaging in risky behavior that you’d otherwise avoid. However, Generation Zero does not do this. It encourages you to play conservatively, compulsively scavenge at every opportunity. “Stop, you have some houses you can rummage through for a spare medkit and a couple rounds of 9mm. You can continue on your journey afterwards.” It really does stop the flow of the game.

No-one is forcing you to go into the houses to “break your game flow”. Avoid the houses if they are hindrance for you. After all, GZ is open world game, not a linear game where you don’t have a choice of path taken.

I sometimes do skip houses when i don’t want or need to check inside them.

Later on, while you’re exploring, you find a box of .32 FMJ. It’s not an actual ammo stack, and it’s large, let’s say 2x3 (6 slots). You take that back to the ammo cache you found in the bunker, drop it in, and now it has a stack of .32 FMJ. Best of all, when you take out a stack of the stuff, there’s still another stack inside of it. It’s unlimited, but you still can’t carry an unlimited amount of ammo.

At this point, as you’re adventuring, you’ll find situations where you probably shouldn’t stick your nose into someplace, but you’ve got to wonder, “is this where I’ll find that 5.56mm FMJ cache?”

You still can’t carry as much as you may want. You still have, at most 40 inventory slots, split between weapons, ammo for your other weapons, medical supplies, flares, grenades, ect. But, now, if you’re using your PPK, you can always start the day with a full supply of ammo for it. Once you get out in the field, you’d need to stock up the old fashioned way, scavenging.

Unlimited ammo at the ammo cache. Why? Do you really need to remove the little reason, what’s left there, to loot for ammo? Machine loot that came in June’s Update already took a huge chunk of ammo looting reasons away from the game. Isn’t that enough for “run and gun” players?

[Starke]

No-one is forcing you to go into the houses to “break your game flow”. Avoid the houses if they are hindrance for you.

This isn’t a personal restraint issue, it’s an optimization issue. Players will, on the whole, act to achieve any advantage, even at the expense of their entertainment.

So, yes, players will stop and loot every house even if it bores them. That’s not a good thing.

Unlimited ammo at the ammo cache. Why?

Why not? We functionally have unlimited ammo caches in the command bunkers currently, you just need to jump from bunker to bunker. On top of that, some towns are functionally safe, to the point that you’re only looking at spending a couple pistol rounds to loot the entire place.

The game, already has unlimited restocking, it just takes the player’s time, and doesn’t come with any inherent risk.

[Aesyle]

Players will, on the whole, act to achieve any advantage, even at the expense of their entertainment.

It’s not the game’s job to force players to do this or that, especially in an open world game as GZ is. If someone wants to break his/hers “game flow” by doing mundane things, it’s their choice.

The game, already has unlimited restocking, it just takes the player’s time, and doesn’t come with any inherent risk.

GZ is exploration and looting game 1st and combat game 2nd. Take out the looting and what you’ve left is open world shooter. Basically open world Doom, especially with the “start the day with a full supply of ammo”.

Also, GZ isn’t a game where player needs to be on the edge 24/7 without any time for the breather. There are other games that fill the latter criteria.

[Starke]

It’s not the game’s job to force players to do this or that, especially in an open world game as GZ is. If someone wants to break his/hers “game flow” by doing mundane things, it’s their choice.

This is, flatly, incorrect.

Moderating how a player will engage with content is a vital part of game design, as I explained earlier. Some very basic examples are combat arenas that “lock” the player in after entering, to prevent them from hiding by the door, and trivializing the encounter. Even just the concept of limited ammo serves to get the player to avoid constantly using the same weapon endlessly. (And, if you think no one’s ever made a shooter without ammo systems, that’s untrue.)

In fact, you can see some of these systems already in GenZero, such as the gas grenade launcher on the Military Hunters, to discourage you from hiding in cover and plinking them to death. The grenade discourages a passive engagement strategy, where you find a position that the enemy cannot target you, while you whittle them down. Another example are the enemies that can spawn ticks, for much the same reason. The seeker drones can also serve a similar function, forcing you to prioritize targets, rather than just sitting back, picking a preferred target, and wearing it down.

Controlling how the player engages with content is critical. It is an important (if, sometimes, difficult) part of game design.

This leads back to the command bunkers. If the idea is to discourage players from restocking by wandering through and picking up everything that isn’t nailed down, that’s not being achieved. The bunkers that continue to spawn machines after they’ve been cleared do present a limited threat within. Even then, those bunkers are far too easy to re-secure for farming.

So you have a situation where you can loot without any threat whatsoever. That’s not engaging content. And, the tight quarters play havoc with the AI anyway.

GZ is exploration and looting game 1st and combat game 2nd. Take out the looting and what you’ve left is open world shooter. Basically open world Doom, especially with the “start the day with a full supply of ammo”.

If the goal is to encourage exploration, then you’re not doing that. The game passively encourages the player to farm territory they’ve already explored.

GenZero is not a looter/shooter, so, the point of the game being about loot doesn’t carry either. In fact, if you look at most of the shooters that are designed around looting, you’ll find many, drastically different design choices, which keep the loot interesting. Simply put, the loot in GenZero is rarely interesting, especially once you’ve put some time into the game. Now, that’s fine if looting isn’t intended to be primary payoff, but, right now, there’s only six desirable loot drops in the game, and all of them drop from a specific enemy variant set.

You don’t need to resort to trying to find terminology when other games already exist in that genre. For example, the Far Cry franchise, STALKER, and Rage 2 (which I’m fairly sure the dev team is quite familiar with.)

Also, GZ isn’t a game where player needs to be on the edge 24/7 without any time for the breather. There are other games that fill the latter criteria.

Part of why I’m fine with the bunkers being safe spaces. I’m even okay with the towns being as safe as they are, though I think those could do with a little more autonomous tick activity (rather than ticks being dropped one per house, they wander around the area, slipping in and out of buildings), I also understand that’s not an option because of the limitations in the ticks’ pathing, and their tendency to slip under buildings and such.

I do, however, think, the time you spend in safe spaces should be player driven, rather than putting incentives to staying in there and not engaging.

In point of fact, for most of GenZero’s game tempo, I’m entirely on board. There’s an excellent pacing choice between action and exploration. I only bring this up, because farming command bunkers is a little lacking, and should probably be discouraged via some means.

[Aesyle]

In fact, you can see some of these systems already in GenZero, such as the gas grenade launcher on the Military Hunters, to discourage you from hiding in cover and plinking them to death. The grenade discourages a passive engagement strategy, where you find a position that the enemy cannot target you, while you whittle them down. Another example are the enemies that can spawn ticks, for much the same reason. The seeker drones can also serve a similar function, forcing you to prioritize targets, rather than just sitting back, picking a preferred target, and wearing it down.

There are more than one way to take enemy machine out. For example:

• military hunter and it’s gas mortar: snipe the mortar off / shoot 1x HE rocket at it / get close to it so it won’t use it’s gas mortar / get inside 2x story building so that the gas won’t reach you etc.
• ticks spawned by hunter/harv/tank: shoot the tick pod off the machine / run around so ticks can’t get to you / get inside the building and close all doors etc.
• seeker: blow it up / lure it near cover and let it to blow it’s horn, once the armada arrives, drop 1x-2x HE rockets in the middle of all of it etc.

It’s up to player to choose which method to use to take machines out, not the game’s job to give the most entertaining way to take them out.

So you have a situation where you can loot without any threat whatsoever. That’s not engaging content.

Yes, it isn’t engaging content since GZ isn’t forcing content upon players. I like the stubble way of GZ. If i want more action, i can always drop heavy comm array lure and wait for the action to come to me. Or if i want peace and quiet, i go sightseeing. It’s the freedom of choice i like.

Now, that’s fine if looting isn’t intended to be primary payoff, but, right now, there’s only six desirable loot drops in the game, and all of them drop from a specific enemy variant set.

Those 6x for you are? 6x Experimental weapons?

For me, there are far bigger amount of desirable items that i can get from looting. Quick count and i got 20x different items that i value and none are the experimental weapons. Also, several of them can be found from anywhere in the world, including loot boxes.

Point is: desirable loot is individual.

I only bring this up, because farming command bunkers is a little lacking, and should probably be discouraged via some means.

It was discouraged in one of the early updates. The entire looting system got the 4x in-game hours cool down timer. Before that, every POI was very easily farmable, just loot everything, quit back to Main Menu, Continue your game and all the loot boxes were full again.

Comm bunkers do have the biggest concentration of loot boxes per km2 due to the nature of them. Reducing loot boxes in them wouldn’t make any sense. Also, spawning machines into them (to make subsequent visits more interesting) doesn’t make much sense either since player already secured them.

Though, devs do plan to make navigating in them easier (e.g color coded walls) but that’s it.

Personally, i’d like to have far more extensive and complex comm bunkers. Best example of it currently in-game would be FOA4. FOA5 was also nice, but too small for my taste.

[Flick]

Resource scarcity can fantastic tool for a developer to push you into engaging in risky behavior that you’d otherwise avoid. However, Generation Zero does not do this. It encourages you to play conservatively, compulsively scavenge at every opportunity. “Stop, you have some houses you can rummage through for a spare medkit and a couple rounds of 9mm. You can continue on your journey afterwards.” It really does stop the flow of the game.

I’m not sure we’ve played the same game. You can go where you please, and many do. I see many players only raid the garages if they’re in town. I’m encouraged to “scavenge” what I need from the places I’m likely to find it instead of spending time looking for disappointment.
GenZero is sold as an action game. It’s open world doom.

(Edit: I didn’t mean to reply to Aesyle and I don’t think I can fix it without doing the long delete, sorry.)

[Starke]

It’s up to player to choose which method to use to take machines out, not the game’s job to give the most entertaining way to take them out.

You do not understand. Grenades, and other area denial weapons, prevent you from finding cover and camping there for the entirety of a fight. This is one of the most common design decisions in modern FPSs. It does not force you into a single playstyle, but it does hard counter one approach to encounters.

Again, this is all to illustrate that, as a game designer, your job is to affect how the player approaches content. Saying that, “a game designer can’t make me play the way they want,” is flatly untrue. In creating the rules for the game, they control the shape of the experience and also how players approach it.

Yes, it isn’t engaging content since GZ isn’t forcing content upon players. I like the stubble way of GZ. If i want more action, i can always drop heavy comm array lure and wait for the action to come to me. Or if i want peace and quiet, i go sightseeing. It’s the freedom of choice i like.

This, isn’t, a good thing. Okay, let me step back and explain: When you’re designing a system, you do not want to encourage the player to engage in activities that will bore them. You can say, “well, then they should go do something else,” which is a fair response, unfortunately, their answer will, often, to be, “play a different game.”

As I said, I do, really like, the overall tempo of GenZero, however this specific point is a weakness. You want to encourage the player to loot through areas once or twice, but not to make repeat visits. You’re not going sightseeing in these bunkers, because you’ve seen the sights already. You’re not under threat, it’s simply a chore you undertake before you go back outside. At that point, there is a real value in smoothing that over, consolidating it, and getting the player on their way, rather than asking them to go through their 15th empty, but suspiciously well armed barracks.

For me, there are far bigger amount of desirable items that i can get from looting. Quick count and i got 20x different items that i value and none are the experimental weapons. Also, several of them can be found from anywhere in the world, including loot boxes.

Point is: desirable loot is individual.

Nobody’s getting an endorphin hit from finding a sticky flare.

If your concept of desirable loot is consumables, that’s not how the genre works. There are only 14 weapons in Gen Zero. 20 if you count the experimentals as unique weapons. When you compare that to actual looter shooters like Destiny or The Division, where the weapon counts are in the triple digits, the array is paltry.

What I’m saying here is, don’t try to present the game as something it’s not. GenZero is not a looter shooter, it does not have the loot variety to support that, much like how you shouldn’t present the game as an RTS. Simply put, it’s not.

I only bring this up, because farming command bunkers is a little lacking, and should probably be discouraged via some means.

It was discouraged in one of the early updates.

That’s not, “discouraged,” that’s flat out prevented. Respawning loot was a necessary change because, without it, you could get into unsalvagable situations. Where you didn’t have the ammo to get the supplies you’d need to actually play. At this point, what exists is a functional solution, but what we have could be better. Particularly if it further encourages the player to explore new areas.

[RighteousTheory]

Generation Zero can be tedious at times as well as rewarding. Depends on the approach as well as the devotion and effort to explore. I personally am a collector so for me this game is my cup of tea. The enemies are fun to engage but it’s missing in variety. Same enemies, same layout, same grind. However the devs are doing their best to make this game a memory we can’t forget. As much as I get frustrated with the game, I can’t help but appreciate the creativity of the game. I just wish there was more to do. I played the game religiously to the point there is nothing left to do except collect apparel and hope I get the trophy on PSN. As for missions a couple are broke so I just gotta wait for the fixes. Anymore I just collect and help others in their world to keep it interesting.

[Starke]

(Edit: I didn’t mean to reply to Aesyle and I don’t think I can fix it without doing the long delete, sorry.)

It still came back to me. No worries.

You’re also missing out on some weird house layouts, such as houses that lack bathrooms, or have two stairways to the upper floor. Stuff gets goofy in some of those houses. But, who doesn’t want a one bed three bath? Wait, what?

[Flick]

I think I’ve seen them all. Even the upside down wallpaper
The one bed three bath kind of house was traditionally used by vampires, because it was safer to sleep in a (covered) bath than risk accidents with the bed.

In creating the rules for the game, they control the shape of the experience and also how players approach it.

If this applies to the apo machines, this is why I quit. And to save another quote, I personally do like finding stickies. They’re my second favourite utility. They’re mint!

[pegnose]

or have two stairways to the upper floor.

I was sure I had looted every house in the game. But I must have missed that one. Where is it?