So, the barrel of the S21 appears to be longer than the A4. Thus, it should have higher velocity, and (in theory) more damage. Especially with armor piercing ammo. I was overhauling my inventory yesterday, and realized that although handling and fire rate are very different between the S21 and A4, damage is exactly the same. This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, and in my opinion should be changed. It really seems to limit usability.
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I agree.
It should be more precise, too.
It felt that I was able to hit distant targets better with an exp AG4 with scope than with the S21.
Maybe it just felt like this because I just tried the 3c version against the 6c AG4.
But don’t expect much more damage, as it uses the same ammo.
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They really should’ve given the S21 and Kotenok a new ammo type; 7.62 (Sniper Rifle) and renamed the base 7.62 into 7.62 (Assault Rifle). The same way there’s 9mm (SMG) and 9mm (Pistol).
This would be a rarer ammo type, somewhere between 7.62 and .243/.270 in scarcity. It would allow the S21 and Kotenok to have higher damage and bridge the gap between the assault rifles and sniper rifles. Which is the whole point of DMRs in games.
Currently the 2 DMRs are pretty much just AG4s with smaller magazines, more recoil, and being locked to semi auto. There’s no real reason to use them unless you’re just interested in variety. If they had significantly higher damage than the 7.62 rifles but still way lower than the hunting rifles, it would make them much more usable and create a new niche of weapons and tactics.
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There could be NATO standard 7.62x51mm ammo for LMGs and ACs and the actual sniper version 7.62x67mm which packs about 40% more energy (increasing over range).
But if I’m correct, the S21 is the GZ name for the M14 and that was just a semi automatic using the same 7.62x51mm ammunition as other 7.62 military rifles so it’s not supposed to be more powerful than more modern ACs. Just consider it something to collect.
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Well that is a good point. However, the longer barrel should still give it more power and accuracy. But that’s just for the S21. The Kotenok should get the new 7.62x67.
Also, kind of a side note, but I feel like DMR’S should have an option for a compensator, since their kick is so substantial.
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It wouldn’t make sense for the SVD (Kotenok) to be using .300 Win Mag (7.62x67). The SVD uses 7.62x54, which is very similar to the 7.62x51 we already have in game. And since it’s a Soviet weapon it wouldn’t make sense for it to be using a western caliber.
DMR compensators would definitely be nice though.
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Well, can’t argue with the first part of that. But, bottom line, more powerful ammunition for the DMR’S is in order.
But yes. Regardless, compinators are also nessisary.
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The thing with these two weapons is that they don’t use more poweful ammo than assault rifles. They use the same ammo in real life. They do have better accuracy.
I don’t use the DMRs in game. I rather have the Älgstudsare.
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The S21 is incredible compared to the Kotenok. Maybe we should work on rebalancing that rather than change up a fairly good weapon.
The same is true for the Kpist and HP5, but the Kpist has higher damage. So I don’t think ammo commonality would prevent the DMRs from getting buffed damage.
They could call the new powerful rounds ‘high velocity’ or something to explain it. Or just give it no explanation like they did with with 9mm (SMG) vs 9mm (Pistol).
Maybe we need human targets for some of the weapons after all…
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If 7.62 NATO chambered rifles weren’t nerfed then the S21 would probably be a viable in game weapon.
The S21 is basically an accurate Mini 30 rifle and that makes me sad.
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7.62 snipers are kinda pointless in this game tbh. Snipers would make a big difference against meat targets but against armoured machines whatever ammo you use is going to make very little difference unless the machines had a particularly weak point that a sniper could hit from a long distance. I use the .50 BMG as comparison and for sniping any target there is nothing that gets close in effectiveness with such a huge difference in the energy. One reason for this is that the max sniping range is determined by the max draw distance. Since the latter is less than the maximum range for most snipers it allows less time and fewer shots fired than potentially possible. Thus only the most powerful ammunition has an impact.
Nerd alert
The muzzle energy of the various sizes of ammunition in the game are roughly as follows:
- .50 BMG between 14,000 and 20,000J
- 7.62 about 3,500J (5,600J for the 67mm sniper rounds)
- .32 about 300J
- 9mm about 500-750J
- .243 around 2,500J
- .270 around 3,500J
- .44 about 1,000 to 2,000J depending on grain and type.
As such there’s not really an awful lot of difference between the 7.62 rifles and the .270 for the älgstudsare but there’s a huge gap up to the .50 BMG, by a magnitude of 4 to 6 times the energy. As such I can’t see much point in spending time and effort on adjusting damage output for the various rifles. For any rifle below .50 cal it matters more what you hit than what you hit with it seems.
At long range both the S21 and Kotenok would be great guns with their excellent accuracy but the drawing distance negates that advantage.
The 9mm AP (9mm m/39B) for K-pist. When fired from that specific weapon it has 574J and can penetrate a 7cm brick Wall or up to 50 layers of kevlar.
But back to the snipers. The S21. I haven’t tried it yet. Don’t feel that I have any use for it. So I can’t say anything about how it is in the game. The Kotenok on the other hand I have and it went back in the box. Too weak compared to the Älgstudsare. And for me the Älgstudsare is an awesome sniper. Perfect for runners and seekers. A bit slow reload in fights against bigger targets.
Please devs, S21 needs to have more damage.
Because it´s a good weapon.
The Kotenok has the same issue (although its even worse)
All I really wanted from the DMR’s was a rifle that traded full auto capability and magazine capacity for accuracy, stability, and the ability to mount a low powered optic.
Right now the DMR’s are accurate enough, but the recoil is pretty harsh and it limits my ability to place shots where I need them quickly. I suppose if the rifles had a damage boost then that might balance things out a bit and make them more usable, but that would be pretty awkward. Barrel length might count for a small velocity boost but it wouldn’t be enough to justify the damage boost over the AG4 that’s needed to make the DMR’s more useful.
Honestly though, I find it faster and more reliable to just use an AG4 with the 1-4 scope and pepper the target with rounds as it’s running in.
Really, the rifle cartridge damage discrepancies need to be ironed out. There’s some pretty wonky damage issues in the game, as incendito rightly pointed out.
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Since Yesterday i have the level 5* S21, while playing in Skirmish difficulty I still cant destroy runners with one shot (as i can with the other 2 rifles).
It is still a very weak rifle in terms of damage.
I agree with this, but this is the same game where .270 and .243 are significantly more powerful than 7.62x51 and 9mm is on par with 5.56. So I don’t think boosting the DMRs’ damage would be that big of a deal. I’d rather them be usable than realistic, myself.
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People underestimate the insane increase in power barrel length can give, difference from a 7.62 fire from an AK config vs. a long-barrel RPK config can be quite heavy (up to a point). But I agree with Vlad that game design rules in these cases and having half of your guns being unrealistic in some way and then asking for guns that perform bad to terrible to be worse due to realism seems like an unrealistic ask. If you implement something, implement it right and make it viable (at least in its role). We are throwing realism out the window anyway, firing .50 BMG rifles from standing, strafing with LMGs like it’s DOOM…
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You’re right about barrel length, but in this case the KVM 59 actually has a longer barrel than either of the DMRs. So it realistically would be even more powerful lol.
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