S21 should be more powerful

Feedback/Feature Requests
62

Nobody is yelling. I’m not right there in your face, in person. I can’t yell at you. It’s on a computer screen. Capitals are used for emphasis.

And, by the way, I did read everything you said. And everything Juan has said, too. You wanted me to address the weight issue, or what?

I’m not bothered by the weight issue, because I understand that the game has certain limitations. I don’t want to have to ditch half of my armory just because the devs suddenly decide to implement realistic weight, so I ignore the weight issue. It therefore isn’t an issue to me.

But the AG4 being weak, doing the same damage as an AI76, does bother me, it is an issue, so I’m here to keep providing feedback on it.

You mention niches, gaps filled by certain weapons. You think the AG4 is supposed to fill the same niche that the AI76, AG5, N16, and AT-WAD all fill? The devs apparently thought the same.

That is exactly the problem. The AK4/G3 and the AK47/AKM do not fill the same niche. They are entirely different classes of weapon.

Assault rifles like the AK47/AKM, etc, as I’ve laid out before, use intermediate power rounds. Battle rifles like the AK4, G3, FAL, etc, as I’ve also laid out before, use full-power rifle ammunition. They have vastly different power in reality. Assault rifles are designed for lighter weight, softer recoil, better recoil control—but with shorter effective range being the cost.

Battle rifles, on the other hand, were designed in the time before assault rifles took over the battlefield. Battle rifles, similar to the combat rifles of old—say, the WWI~WWII era rifles like the British SMLE, American Springfield 1903, German G.98, the newer K.98, the Russian Mosin-Nagant, and the newer American M1 Garand—had much more power, and much longer effective range compared to the assault rifles then in their infancy…but the cost was everything related to handling and weight. The recoil of a battle rifle is worse than that of an assault rifle. The controllability at close range is worse for a battle rifle, compared to an assault rifle. The battle rifle will recoil more violently and jump around, up and to either side, worse than an assault rifle. Therefore, a battle rifle is best used—as the British and Americans quickly found out—at longer range than the assault rifle, and with the battle rifle set or LIMITED to semi-auto. The British swapped from full-auto capable FALs to semi-auto-only models. The American M14 was initially designed to work much the same as the BAR of WWI~WWII, but after the recoil issue made itself so well known, they had the select-fire components REMOVED in most cases, to limit the M14 to semi-auto only as well. Most folks who used the G3, including the Swedish forces with their AK4 variant, were perhaps a bit more well disciplined and simply set them to semi-auto or got used to firing short, controlled bursts without so much fuss.

So, where do I say the AG4 should fall in? What niche? NOT in the same gap as the AI76, AG5, N16, or AT-WAD. The AG4 should be above that. The AG4 should find itself alone, in a niche between the proper assault rifles and the designated marksman’s rifles (the S21 and the Kotenok). Which is exactly what I’ve said before. It is, in fact, exactly what I have been saying the entire time. The S21 and Kotenok need to be improved, and the AG4 as well. Again. To improve balance, and to nail the feel of each weapon. Mess up the AG4’s handling some more, but buff the damage. Buff the S21’s damage, and the Kotenok’s, as well.

If you’re no longer interested in sharing your feedback on this topic, cool. You have already made your position clear, anyway.

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Fair enough to mention, which is why people point out other weapons to compare to.

No matter where you’re from, the AK4, G3, FAL, and M14 all are comparable to one another, roughly equivalent in some terms.

Likewise, no matter where you’re from, the AK5, FNC, AK47, AKM, AK74, etc, L85, M16, M4, etc, are all comparable to one another, roughly equivalent in some terms.

Similarly, there is the distinction between the terms “SMG” and “machine pistol.” And other equivalent terms, like “Kulsprutepistol” for the K-Pistol. Pretty much every country, at some point, has used “machine pistol” to refer to SMGs. But then there is the different idea of what is a “machine pistol”—like, say, a Glock 18, a full-auto variant of the CZ75, the Skorpion, or other full-auto or burst-capable pistols like the VP70M, the Beretta 93, etc.

Regardless of what terms we use, it is the POWER BAND of certain weapons that matters in regards to what separates the AK4/G3 and the AK47/AKM, and which should also separate the AG4 and the AI76 in the game.

There is only one weapon I can think of, or name right off the top of my head, that occupies both seats—that is, by design, at the flip of a switch and the change of ammo, capable of being either “assault rifle” or “battle rifle.” The Japanese Howa Type 64. It is a 7.62x51mm firearm, and it is compatible with 7.62x51mm NATO full-power ammunition…IF the gas system is set accordingly. Typically, however, the Japanese use their own low-power load in it, for improved handling. That reduced power load of theirs DOES drop the Type 64 down into “assault rifle” territory, it IS roughly speaking an intermediate power cartridge they’ve got for it.

IF GZ had been set in Japan, and the “AG4” had been based on the Howa Type 64, and it was given the same damage stats as the AI76, the in-game equivalent to the AK47/AKM, I would have no complaint. That would’ve been close enough. But, alas, GZ was set in Sweden, and the AG4 is based on the AK4, the G3, a radically different weapon with a radically different power band from the AK47/AKM, and so I have this complaint… And not just me.

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I’ve seen plenty of people use plenty of different weapons at different points, too, but usually that’ll be because they don’t have certain weapons in their arsenal yet. They don’t have the EXP KVM59, so they can’t use it. They don’t have the EXP PVG90, so they don’t use it, because they can’t. They don’t have the EXP KPIST, or the EXP AG4, so they don’t use them. Once they get those weapons, though, the great unwashed masses will use them, and the handguns will be forgotten almost entirely, along with the bolt-actions, and most other normal weapons. The lowest common denominator will use whatever the meta is, whatever the most effective weapons are. As indicated, roughly, by a poll someone has going at the moment. If you see others using other weapons, great—but how many have you seen using the S21, the Kotenok, or a non-experimental AG4?

If you’d read what I’ve posted already, Juan, you would’ve seen that I do indeed have some small complaints regarding the damage done by the 5.56mm weapons. I’ve just lumped everything in here, and focused on the bigger issue I have—the AG4’s excessive similarity to the AI76, with a side of S21 and Kotenok. So, yeah, I could open another thread, or maybe resurrect another old one, but why waste time arguing my position in multiple samey threads when I can just do it here, all at once?

You want to see data on 1C all the way to 5C? It has already been pointed out that the spread you would see there qualifies as a gameplay concession, something you yourself keep saying should be acceptable, so I honestly find it odd you bring it up as if you have a complaint about it. Do you really feel like the quality levels should be only about visuals, and not about functionality and the “zero to hero” progression?

I do just so happen to have some data from 1C to 5C that I gathered for a bug report on the S21 and the Kotenok, previously, if you really want to see it. As you and everyone else should be aware, the S21 and the Kotenok both for the longest time had issues with their stat cards showing the wrong progression for their 4C and 5C versions. The 4C stat card suggested better performance than the 5C versions, though testing proved this only to be an issue with the stat cards being out of order.

The S21 actually does STILL have this problem with the stat cards. I completed a report for the Kotenok, previously (though it may not have been posted here), and the Kotenok’s stat cards have been rearranged accordingly (though it may only have been a coincidence that it did happen roughly right after I put together my report). I have what should be the necessary data for the S21 report, but the lack of one set of data renders that one otherwise incomplete.

This data was gathered during earlier testing, as laid out before—but with a bit less accuracy, as fewer variables were eliminated, as you seem to prefer—versus various targets, and various ranges, but all with plain old 7.62mm FMJ, this was the data:

S21, 1C:

  • Vs. FNIX CLASS Runner, knee, “structural steel”:
    “10%” damage, suppressed. “12%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. MILITARY CLASS Runner, knee, “structure”:
    “14~15%” damage, suppressed. “16~17%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. PROTOTYPE CLASS Runner, knee, “structure”:
    “20~24%” damage, suppressed. “21~26%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. PROTOTYPE CLASS Hunter, knee, “structure”:
    “4~6%” damage, suppressed. “5~6%” damage, unsuppressed.

Kotenok, 1C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “10%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “14%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “18~20%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “5%” damage, suppressed.

S21, 2C:

  • NOT TESTED. Haven’t got one. Can’t get one to drop. Is the Prototype Tank not dropping these like it should? I need one of these to really finish the S21 bug report, though the 2C I don’t expect to really add any value to the report. The report would be regarding the stat cards for the 4C and 5C versions, nothing to do with the 2C version really—though, for completeness sake, the weapon and the data would be nice to have. Anybody on XBox got one they’d be willing to hand over/trade? I can hand over basically anything in-game in exchange.

Kotenok, 2C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “12~13%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “17%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “24~26%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “5~6%” damage, suppressed.

S21, 3C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “15%” damage, suppressed. “16~18%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “20~23%” damage, suppressed. “23~26%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “33~36%” damage, suppressed. “34~39%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “6~8%” damage, suppressed. “7~9%” damage, unsuppressed.

Kotenok, 3C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “13~14%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “21%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “28~30%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “7~8%” damage, suppressed.

S21, 4C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “17%” damage, suppressed. “18~19%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “24~27%” damage, suppressed. “25~30%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “33~41%” damage, suppressed. “36~46%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “7~10%” damage, suppressed. “8~11%” damage, unsuppressed.

Kotenok, 4C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “17%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “24%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “31~35%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “7~8%” damage, suppressed.

S21, 5C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “17~18%” damage, suppressed. “21~24%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “28~31%” damage, suppressed. “30~34%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “37~43%” damage, suppressed. “41~48%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “8~11%” damage, suppressed. “9~12%” damage, unsuppressed.

Kotenok, 5C:

  • Vs. FNIX Runner:
    “20%” damage, suppressed.
  • Vs. Military Runner:
    “26~27%” damage, suppressed. “29~30%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Runner:
    “40~41%” damage, suppressed. “42~45%” damage, unsuppressed.
  • Vs. Prototype Hunter:
    “8~9%” damage, suppressed. “9~10%” damage, unsuppressed.

Since I haven’t got 1C~3C data for the AI76 and AG4 recorded, but we have the S21 and Kotenok data handy now, why don’t we talk about them some more? Even with this rough data, from earlier testing with less precise methods used, there are clear differences between the two guns—with the S21 being just a touch more powerful than the Kotenok for the same quality level. This should be the other way around, with the Kotenok ever so slightly more powerful than the S21—because, to fall back on my previous logic, that is the relationship between the SVD and the M14. That relationship should be reflected in-game, just as with the AI76/AK47 vs AG4/AK4 relationship that I keep pointing out, because that is “the character of those weapons.” But all of that has been said before, too.

Again, Juan, the changes I propose are NOT. PURELY. ABOUT. REALISM. How many times must I say that, really? They’re about things that matter in-game, like differentiation between weapons. Game balance, every weapon having a place. And, as I’ve pointed out the whole time, but perhaps most eloquently in the lasted response to Mad, the “place” that the AG4 should occupy in the game is NOT the same niche or gap that the AI76 should occupy.

The AG4 should occupy a space somewhere between the AI76 and the S21/Kotenok duo. The AG4 should have worse recoil than the AI76, making it less suitable for use at close range compared to the AI76—which should indeed be the close range king. The AG4 should, in exchange, GAIN SOME POWER to differentiate it from the AI76, and make the AG4 more well suited to use at longer range, set to semi-auto.

Adding skills and other such things to the equation does not change the fact that the raw base damage of the AG4 is TOO LOW. It should NOT be the same as the AI76, PERIOD. Not in-game, not in ANY game.

If the devs wanted the AG4 to handle like an AI76, an AK47/AKM, then they should have based it on a different weapon—the HK 32, instead of the AK4/G3. You see, the HK32 is weapon that LOOKS like the AK4/G3, but has power output more like an AK47/AKM, because the HK32 really DOES use the same ammo as the AK47/AKM. That is, the HK32 is a variant of the G3 that has been scaled down to use the 7.62x39mm cartridge. Oh, but the HK32 is even more similar to the AK47/AKM, in that the HK32 also uses longer, curved magazines of higher capacity compared to the standard 20-rounders used by the AK4/G3—in fact, the HK32’s magazines could be mistaken for the magazines used by an AK47/AKM, they are similar enough.

But no. Instead of picking a weapon that would fit the same niche perfectly, they butcher the AK4/G3 by not nailing the weapon’s character. A strange move, for some Swedes to not give a Swedish weapon the respect it rightly deserves. “Screw the local boy, Russian bias, instead!” Really?

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And it should for the love of god accept 1x-4x scopes!

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