Skills Analysis and Criticism

Feedback/Feature Requests
1

For all skills which I have not mentioned, assume that I consider them functional/relevant, appropriate/acceptable, and/or of good design, and/or good skill “tree” positioning.

[a] Replace MAKE ‘EM COUNT as it’s a total deadweight skill that at best requires an autoclicker script to promote-from-worthless, and which people simply must pass through to unlock MARKSMAN.

[b] Nerf FLANKING, it should have a maximum trigger rate, currently you can stunlock a reaper.

[c] Rework COMMANDER as it’s worthless to richer players, and is glitch-prone when if you switch specializations mid-game (doing this can break all radios on map for you).

[d] Replace CARRY CAPACITY which is a basically mandatory skill for anyone that wants to have a sufferable experience. Only exceptionally rare players with multiple high level character will choose to not use it. Instead, carry weight should simply increase by 1 point each level. Additionally the skill should be completely replaced.
Although, in the current structure I actually greatly appreciate the design of this skill tree and placing CARRY CAPACITY after the also-generally-desirable skills affecting movement speed.

[e] Replace VETERAN GUERILLA which is not only crazy tedious (to maintain marking on every enemy you kill), but it’s reliant on abilities from a different skilltree making it potentially worthless. Completely replace it.

[f] COMMANDO is misleading because of complexities in differences between enemy aggression modes and player-character “In Combat” status. Is it the first damage per you entering combat? First damage per enemy entering combat? Can this be utilised by sniping a distracted Reaper from 400 meters?
It seems that the specialization is continually effective if you shoot an enemy from beyond its visual range, however the situations where this can be exploited are very rare. “first damage dealt” is unclear. Its illustration image should depict a trap, sniper-rifle or rocket-launcher as these are the most practically valuable opening attacks to raise by 15%

[g] The SPOTTING INTEL skill description should mention that it shows enemy HP %

[h] The INQUISITIVE MIND skill is a great boon for first-character and power-levelers but screws-over players when they’ve reached high level and discover there is no skills-resetting. I would suggest replacing all increase-experience skills until skills-resetting functionality is in the game. However they would then become absurd as is would be logical for all players to choose faster-level skills first then reset for combat and utility skills.

[i] Update description of REMOTE HACKING as it is unclear what “confusing” entails.

[j] Improve HACKING to also have 100% chance to disable 1 weapon on an enemy, only one hack may be active on any machine at a time. This would make it not-worthless vs larger machines.

[k] Update description of ENGINEER to mention that it actually allows all players in your-hosted session to loot Ticks from enemies. This should be stated. It should also be specified whether the specialisation needs to be active when the enemy dies or when their corpse is looted.

[l] A general point on specializations: The descriptions that “Only one specialization may be active at a time” while technically true, seems half-baked. You can in-fact switch specialization at any time in and out of combat, and each specialisation has extremely different times-of-relevance. You might: Use COMMANDER pre combat to set up radios, COMMANDO or HACKER to initiate combat, MARKSMAN at range, SURVIVOR for 1 free revive when the enemy is close then switch to VANGUARD or MEDIC, then switch to ENGINEER for post-combat looting.
Basically, the single specialization paradigm needs to be reassessed. I believe that all specializations need to be mid-combat benefits or abilities, while those out-of-combat bonuses should be moved to other positions in the skills trees.
Relocated skills could be: (Commando: +5% combat-initiation damage per level × 3)(Commander +1 Field radio use per level × 3)(Engineer +x% chance of Tick Pod per level × Z)
I want to hear from you: what new specializations could be (if you’d like to help me make a case for balanced specializations). Passive healing? Slightly increased damage if no-damage taken for x time? Knockdown immunity? Reduced chance to draw enemy agro? Impair nearby enemy aim? Even more gas resistance?

[m] I don’t believe that the max level is stated anywhere in-game(?)

[n] Lastly, max-level increases and other means of skills points addition have been requested extensively. As I’ve seen them, many have been short-sighted appeals to give extreme-amounts-more points so they can be more powerful, or to gain freedom in an inflexible and punishing skills system. However after a great deal of testing and assessing skills, here is what I support: A mechanism to reset skills points.
(In the case that skills are not reworked: ) An increased to 36 skills points (20% more), via a slightly increased maximum level or otherwise. (Note, there are currently 86 buyable skillpoints.)
Summarised reasoning: After designing and testing multiple builds I’ve found that 30 points is sufficient to build powerful a single-focus character (I have 5 good builds designed), and therefore is currently acceptable - however with 36 points I’m able to build at least 6 setups with much greater utility and versatility, which can cooperate in a perfect team, operate solo comfortably, or contribute to any other random group of teammates. Regarding skills resetting: irreversible points dedication is unacceptable given unclear mechanics and the extreme time-cost of leveling and testing.

I felt it would be unnatural and heavy to dump all of this into another skills discussion thread, of which there are a couple full of strong discussions and suggestions. However those threads are significantly old and slightly outdated including broken hyperlinks at this point.

2

Well, now my topic’s analysis and criticism.
I get and agree that skill tree need rework ASAP, since game moved way too far from what it was designed in the beginnning. I did similar post for skill rearrange, some of my opinion will be repeated here.
I can make mistakes naming some skills, since I didn’t bothered to memorize their names.

That’s clear enough for me, since first plays. Nothing states that you can’t have more than one specialization. I’d leave as it is.
30 points are enough, it’s just skills are patterned way too inconvenient. I’d grind up to 1m XP, if I had to gain these 5 more levels (there’s better explaination by @Aesyle somewhere).
It’s XP skill that should be removed.

I’m currently working on “Commando” build, still in progress.
What I’d like to see is either clarity and better increase (25%+) on bonus. As far as I understand from how certain challenge worked - machine should be “calm”. 15% is way too low for it’s worth to get it.

I didn’t played Hacker much, but that was enough to conclude that a) if power is same, then move it to 2nd or 3rd tier skill above (“Remote hacking”, I believe); b) increase chances or remove/greatly reduce cooldown if there’s no “rogue” machines.

About Engineer, also didn’t played much, mostly because I’ve had no spare space for more resources to spend - deployable ticks suxx, better make 'em thowable, even for very short distance (around flying radio) and besides, ticks ain’t that good for spending skill tree on them in the long run.

“Make 'em count”, well, as well as “Trigger happy” (the one with +dmg for automatic fire). Autoclicker or not, but pistols, shotguns and hunting rifles greatly enjoy this skill. Especially if we consider HP/SP/slug ammo damage multipliers. Oh and .50 cal too.

While I agree, that Carry Cap is mandatory meta skill, I can safely assume that you can completely skip it, since quite close proximity to safe houses and Plundra chests within them and METRIC TONS of ammo laying around. Recycling alleviates the need to stockpile and manage certain ammo types, just “sell” what you don’t gonna bother with and “buy” what you need now.

Agree on removal of “Commander” - field radios ain’t in much demand and just keep stockpiling.
Not agree, with “non-combat specializations should go to general skills”.
No passive healing - game getting way too easy even without it. No increased damage after some time - ditto. No knockdown immunity - there’s skill to counter knockdown and damage that knock you down is great to begin with. Reduced chance to draw enemy aggro… in solo it’s useless, they either aggroed on you or not aggroed at all; aggro selection in base game is wonky and unpredictable as it is now, so making it more unreliable - I’d rather not. Impair enemy aiming - well, there’s smoke and distractions for that, although former ain’t working right in the first place - “infantry” ignore it, Tanks and Harvesters do get messed up by it. Even more gas resistance? You mean even more Vanguard than Vanguard? Or you wanna to breath deep in purple gas?

Agree on warning about max level and “currently no way to respec”, except for creating new char.

3

I think you mean this idea of mine:

Dead weight for you but invaluable for me. So, are you suggesting that devs should remove the skill just based on your own, personal preference, alone? :roll_eyes:

4

I meant post about numbers and how much exponentially more XP player should gain for level up past 31th level.

5

Please note that my comments on specializations balance are about harmony

The description of “Make 'em count” is as follows “Single shot fire with automatic weapons does more damage to components.” therefore shotguns, pistols, and hunting rifles do not benefit. If it did affect all single fire weapons then I would not have criticised it.

Regarding your response to my new-specialization suggestions: you’ve given decent opinions about why my suggests are undesired, but what would we switch commander for? Or Engineer for is response to your disapproval of loot ticks.

6

Explain to me what you want from me? This is clearly an opinionated discussion in a section called “Feedback/…”
To reiterate it’s a mechanically very weak skill and I can’t find anyone on discord that uses it. Automatic weapon single fire mode only exists on SMGs (which are high ROF effective low range, so you would never use it) and assault rifles (again [AG5] 5.56 significant damage dropoff, meaning 7.62 ARs might be the only redemption but the AL76 does not accept marksman scopes) where again the dps sacrifices would be significant.
Most importantly you can simply tap shoot rather than hold it down making actually switching to singlefire mode totally needless in general. (This however is not a criticism of the weapons, the modes add realism.) ; You don’t need to go to single fire mode to 1tap runners in their fuel cells and you don’t need bonus damage to do so.
Also, whats the attachment to such a minor skill? It’s probably only 5 lines of code. Do you think the devs will be offended that I suggest it be replaced/improved?

7

You say as if this skill “exlusively for selective-fire rifles” - these are seconary or “backup” options for that skill. There’s a lot of other guns, that are “single shot”, including pistols, rifles, shotguns, rocket launcher.
An as a cherry on the cake - 5%/10% may be low, but did you see that damage stat on these guns?

8

Oh, that one. Here it is:

Just because you don’t see any value in it, doesn’t mean it should be removed from the game, where game is tailored according your preferences, while completely disregarding a lot of other people, myself included, who find that skill very useful.

Well, i’m also on GZ Discord and i do use that skill. So, what this makes it then? :thinking:

Semi-auto fire for HP5 is a great way to conserve ammo and i use it to pop seekers in one shot. Also, i love using my AG4 + 4-8x scope in semi-auto fire, when firing against harv/tank, to snipe their components, since semi-auto fire is far more precise than full-auto mode. With full-auto, you’re basically hoping that some of the bullets actually do land on target.

Btw, AI-76 doesn’t need marksman scopes since it’s a close combat weapon. It’s poor accuracy and high recoil doesn’t make it a good weapon to snipe with.

And as said by DeadWanderer, there are far more single shot weapons in the game that you are considering.

There are, in total, 15 normal weapons and 5 experimental weapons that benefit from the Make 'em Count skill; while Trigger Happy is beneficial to only 9 normal weapons and 3 experimental weapons. With that, i’d say that Trigger Happy is less beneficial skill than Make 'em Count and i’d scrap the Trigger Happy skill.
Moreover since it’s placed just before the most popular specialization: Vanguard, where anyone who doesn’t use full-auto weapons or full-auto fire mode with their Vanguard build, will have that skill as a dead weight.

9

I wasn’t looking to leverage the entire discord as my personal army. I’m simply saying that I asked a couple times and no one spoke up in defense of single fire mode.
Regardless the change that I’m suggesting is not very significant and I don’t see it needing too much more discussion.

That’s fine and I wouldn’t lobby for a change.

Yes there are but the skill in question describes pertaining to only weapons which have automatic fire mode and are set in single fire mode. Otherwise this conversation wouldn’t even be happening.

“MAKE 'EM COUNT” : “Single shot fire with automatic weapons does more damage to components.”
Post proof if you’re going to claim that the skill description is lying to you.

10

That’s great. But you can reliably make a full-auto weapon fire single bullet, in this game, by just holding the fire button for a shorter duration.

11

Now we’re finally discussing skills.
That’s an understandable reservation regarding Trigger Happy not being desirable for everyone on their path to Vanguard.
You’ve mentioned in other threads that you’d support a skill-tree with more freedom. I think that would be interesting and desirable too, however it’s quite a major change to the skilltree system. I could support the trigger happy skill somehow being moved to a none-necessitating position.

12

This is actually discussed in another topic and 'til this date, is unconfirmed: Full auto or single shot damage perks

And you can make semi-auto fire mode weapons to shoot in full-auto as well, when you click very fast. I’ve done it with .50 cal and with Klaucke.

Though, SMGs have that high RoF that in full-auto mode, it’s near impossible to fire a single shot.

Well, my idea would benefit all players and not just one group of players or another.

For example: Flanking.
You discuss making it less active, where machines can’t be stun-locked anymore. While it would benefit multiplayer gameplay, what you didn’t consider is the skill placement in the skill tree and it’s “usefulness” for solo players.

As of now, any solo player, who wants to have Enemy Marking skill, has to take the Flanking skill, which will be completely useless for solo players. Now, that is a true dead weight skill, since while you can benefit from Make 'em Count or Trigger Happy when playing solo or MP, you won’t benefit from Flanking at all in solo game.

Since many skill issues are due to their placement and requirement of unlocking them in a tree, that causes players wasting skill points on useless skills (e.g Make 'em Count for you), just to gain beneficial skill (Marksman). However, if all skills would be “open”, without the prerequisite skill requirement (as i suggested in my 1st quoted reply in here), players could pick the skills they need, while avoiding the skills they don’t want.

Also, i see several “remove/replace” requests from you but no suggestions with what should be put in place of them. E.g: Veteran Guerilla, Make 'em Count, Trigger Happy.

13

If that’s the case all that needs to be updated is the skill descriptor, or perhaps it could be defined as a “bug”. The description of Trigger Happy strongly suggest to me that they are mutually exclusive bonuses for the firemodes of only-automatic weapons. I also have not tested.

I strongly agree with your sentiment that some parts of the game neglect solo-players, especially since so many people are completely dejected from playing this game multiplayer.
I would have included flanking in my criticism if I’d thought of it like you have. Although depending on the function of distractions throwables, and given the “Hacking” skill, Flanking may have uses even in solo play.
“Down But Not Out”, “Revive Speed”, and “Healer” as I understand them are completely useless in solo.
Given how blatant this is, I suppose that the designers were fully OK with neglecting solos. I’m sure that we’re welcome to try to convince them otherwise, we just have to make that clear.

I suggest a compromise: (I believe that it is by design that players would not be allowed to jump straight to the 5th skill in a skill column. (With the exceptionally relevant case here being “Hacking” specialization completely replaces remote “Remote Hacking” Let’s assume, I guess, that one is not reliant on its current-prerequisite other.))
You should need at least 1 skill point spent in the row above, within the same heading, allowing you to crisscross at will in a downward direction inside of COMBAT or TECH for example, without pumping all your points into the the (best(?)) late-column skills to unlock the best specialization.
I think this would make everyone happy.

Indeed that is a whole and subsequent discussion. (I was trying to be specific but not dictatorial.) Under specialization comments I did mention that I wanna heard from others and offered several options.
For specifics, after playing a few MMOs and many other games (including shooters) I’ve learned there are literally hundreds of probably-good probably-possible option for replacement skills. I can list them all day if you specifically want me to, but I did lazily title the thread “analysis and criticism” not “complete design document for skills re-implementation”. I’m not being sarcastic, that’s genuinely my stance at this stage.

14

Besides that specific instance, there are plethora of other aspects in the game, who’s description is either vague or completely missing.

E.g while there is Tutorials section under Log tab, explaining several aspects of the game, it does not include the max level cap in the game.
Or in Settings, Dynamic Resolution Target FPS. Description doesn’t state if the FPS value, either 30 or 60, is the max FPS (aka FPS cap) or min FPS.
And as you pointed out, some skills description could be better as well.

GZ was developed as co-op game 1st and since devs decided to use the seamless MP method, solo play is crucial part of that system. (Similar method is used in Watch Dogs 1 & 2 games.) Due to that, we have several skills which are MP only.

It would be nice if MP only skills would be separate from other skills, so, that solo players won’t be wasting their valuable skill points on useless skills.
On the other hand, skills are now grouped more-or-less by their usage. E.g Healer, Heal Amount, Revive Speed and Medic are all in one tree. And it would be strange to relocate Healer and Revive Speed, splitting the stack of health related skills.

To me, all skills are equal and there aren’t any “great” 4th or 5th skills that i’d be jumping straight away if all skills would be “open”.

While this idea gives players more freedom on picking skills within the 4 main groupings of skills, it still has it’s restrictions.

For example:
Let’s say solo player wants to have Medic specialization.

  1. 1st pick would be either Throw Accuracy or Throw Distance.
    If player isn’t using throwables (personally, i’m not using any), either of the skill would be a dead weight.

  2. 2nd pick would be either Flanking or Healer.
    Regardless with skill player picks, both are MP only and dead weight in solo play.

  3. 3rd pick would be either Enemy Marking or Veteran Guerilla.
    Thing is, Veteran Guerilla (one of very few skills) is completely useless without the prerequisite skill: Enemy Marking.

  4. 4th pick would be either Designated Target or Heal Amount.
    If player made a mistake, picking Veteran Guerilla before, picking Designated Target now will result into 2nd dead weight skill since that skill too doesn’t work without Enemy Marking skill.

  5. 5th pick would be either Last Man Standing or Revive Speed.
    Since Revive Speed is MP only skill, player is forced to pick Last Man Standing.

  6. And lastly, player can pick between Medic or Commander specializations.

Now, lets compare my “open” skills suggestion in the same example. With my idea, you are free to pick any skill within the current grouping and once you’ve unlocked 5th skill in the grouping, you can pick your specialization.

To unlock Medic specialization, player can pick e.g:

  • Throw Accuracy, Throw Distance, Heal Amount, Enemy Marking and Designated Target.
  • or Enemy Marking, Designated Target, Veteran Guerilla, Heal Amount, Last Man Standing.
  • or any other combination of the 5 skills in Support grouping.

With this, solo players can completely avoid MP only skills and pick the skills they actually can have some use out of.

Though, to avoid dead weight skills (e.g having Designated Target without Enemy Marking), devs could make it so, that the skill that requires prerequisite skill, does not unlock for the player, until player has unlocked that specific prerequisite skill.
Skills that are prerequisite skills, are:

  • Enemy Marking → Designated Target, Veteran Guerilla
  • Remote Hacking → Hacker

There are some other skills that devs can add to the prerequisite skill grouping, e.g:

  • Throw Accuracy → Throw Distance
  • Stamina Amount → Stamina Recharge

Overall, skill tree would need some changes to make it better to understand and use. There are several different methods for that, like:

Yes, there are plethora of skills in other games. Though, thing is, if they are also fitting to the GZ. :thinking:

I, personally, don’t want any skills in GZ that has to do with magical abilities/bonuses. While magical abilities/bonuses are popular in other games, i like the realistic way in GZ.

E.g camo paint on a weapon should not make you, as a whole, less visible to the machines. It only makes the weapon itself, less visible. And when to consider the machine optics, camo paint doesn’t have any effect on visibility reduction, since machines use either Low Light, IR or OPV to see you.

Since base building is coming to a game, devs could add base building related skills and raise level cap a bit (or replace some current least useful skills without level cap increase).

For what little we know about base building,

  • one skill could be “Reinforce”, which, once unlocked, gives all base modules more HP. E.g: 20% at lvl1 and 40% at lvl2.
  • another skill could be “Assault”, where the auto-firing pillbox deals more damage to the machines. E.g: 5% and 10% per skill unlock.
15

kind of interesting that your dogging on these when combine its breaks the Single highest damage output from range. Thrill seeker - stealth overlords - tension grabbers - heart-pounders all should love these. the description fits the hacking skill (temporally confuses the enemy) in retrospect it has malfunction in turn makes a perfect 1 shot kill. *think of it like this when a Server is hack it is temporally disable but when the Machine breaks free its breaking your virus you put into it. 2 things will happen when this is happening Reboot 20-40 sec and a Soft Tracer software will be perform to trace to the hackers proximate location. Roleplay my friend instead of saying this needs editing think of real-time hacking if x happens y follow then finally Z.

Now onto Commando Range of visuals is based on your visible cover and noise of the Shot… Most shots can be taken w/ a 5c Albugstere 4x8 scope full vision and a 5c silencer 145yards - 200 yards away… You can test the damage by scanning the Robots w/ Spotting Intel___ reason y Range upgrade is so vital to stealth snipers because if you don’t have it you have to guess where the Robot is in correlation to a waypoint.

this could be a good idea.

if you want this play on adventure mode only real thrill seekers are in Gorilla. You get addicted like good crack that a hunter can 100 to 20 health w/ a random shank or 100 -0 full in your face bullet fire
, gas, fire, radiation ticks are twice as fast. Every movement matters when your on Gorilla mode. Besides you get the chance to spawn higher tier rivals in the Mode also the Chance on Death to spawn Rival.

assuming you seen the Live Stream just before this Post… the Dev in that Stream really don’t want to increase the Skill cap because sometimes you need to make sacrifices. towards your gameplay if you lvl capped was raised to 36 know what is going to happen to Vanguards — Designated target and Last One Standing will be added to there build then upon almost death they will have 35 increase damage resistances. Boomers will be able to get stealth ____ this will throw allot of things out of the META… but the meta is unagreeable a Run and Gun. Not a big fan of since the game was in the Stealth Section of Steam and Epic.