No, more tankey just is not the solution.
Increased aggro range, increased aggression, faster response times, defensive manoeuvring, THAT will increase the threat level FAR more than just slapping on armour on machines that do not even get it to attack you.
If you have a sick tree with leaves turning green, you need to fix the roots, not paint these leaves green, right?
And adding armour is painting the leaves…
More tanky is not the only fix, never ment that. just look at the OP lvls in BL2, it´s kinda boring to hit a boss with
25´942´739´124´224 HP with guns that do 1´000´000 * 0.02 = actual damage. (OP8) Nobody plays that raidboss and likes it. anyway back to GZ…
They need a new rewamped AI over evrything, but when you can hit a tank with >10 well placed shoots with the PVG90
(5* or 6*) and then they drop like 20x 50cal shells… well they are just not tanky enough imo, they should be a little more tanky late game imo. lvl 20-25+
Or maybe you like the game to be a cake walk? :I
I just made a statement from my experience playing the game, nothing that is “writen in stone”
They are called tank but they act more like a glass cannon if you got anything with AP rounds.
I respect your opinions tho 
It´s good to have many diffrent opinions in a discussion. But lets ignore the armor thing for now, what changes would make tanks scary again in your opinion?
As I see it: if they tweak the ‘machine intellect’ right, the current armour ratings will even need to be halved, if not even quartered.
Imagine a Tank, FNIX class, AS IS RIGHT NOW, with a 300m aggro range, keen senses (bound/limited to LoS and hearing range, of course, they cannot see through mountains or houses, logically!), the understanding to actually react to this in the correct way, the understanding to dodge and take cover if needed, with a fair accuracy.
Do you think, it would need more armour still?
Or… would it even need the CURRENT armour/HP amount still?
Or heck, even the current damage rating???
So far they did just that with the Apo machines, basically: just slap even more armour and HP on it, and sure, they are harder to take down… time wise and ammo wise.
But they are still just as dumb!!!
For an Apo Tank: get to high ground and they are rendered totally harmless by that move alone (unless just now fixed that is).
While needing more time and ammo to kill it, did it actually get harder?
Food for thought. 
Perhaps they could let seekers act as spotters to direct mortar fire, allowing tanks to bombard you from longer distances (if the tank is within a reasonable range from the seeker and the player…)
Well, they are, if you know where to look.
Hint: Rivals.
Make Apo tank a rival (kill spawn or score spawn). Don’t engage it until it has levelled up to lvl4. Once it’s lvl4, go after it. If lvl4 rival (especially Apo tank) isn’t tanky enough for you then i don’t know what could be.
I agree with Xogroroth’s idea of making machines smarter, rater than tougher.
A smart machine with e.g 100 HP is far bigger of a challenge than dumb machine with e.g 1000 HP.
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Having fought a tank with some poisonous sniper gun from range with a ‘good’ PSG90 I went through over 100 .50 rounds (level 13 - no points in shooting skills).
Sure the tank was walking back and forth behind some trees so some of the shots most likely hit the tree / branches / leaves hit boxes but still…
That just felt tedious.
Fighting a tank equipped with different weapons (ie. rockets) would have been much harder.
Suggestions;
- Better AI / tactics (as most have already mentioned).
- Better support - ability to call in support by the tank. Support arrives from a random direction and is of a random type (runners / hunters/tanks
).
Part of the problem is that you pick off the tank support units and then can, at your leisure whittle away at the tank. If support arrives from a random direction after a random amount of time then you are always looking over your shoulder and time is more urgent.
I think part of the issue is that the higher level weapons (esp the experimental) are just too strong and never have any form of risk (reliability issues). Throw that in to the mix and suddenly there is another element of uncertainty.
Keeping the player off balance and challenged is better than tanking up the tanks.
1 Like
That is in the game already in form of making noise. If you create a racket and when there are machines around, they will come to investigate what is going on.
More than often, i’ve seen that happening.
One time, i was at the Mountains. Saw lone FNIX tank. Went after it in the middle of dense forest and on the slope (just NE from the time machine). I was about half-way done with the tank when suddenly, FNIX hunter patrol showed up.
My life went considerably harder at that point. Not only i had to navigate between trees and on the slope, i also had to keep tabs on the FNIX tank and all FNIX hunters who showed up so i won’t get flanked, while juggling weapons and first aid kits, avoiding incoming attacks and also aiming the weapon to land hits.
That was some doing, but fun.
Of course, if you clear out the area first and leave the tank for last then you probably won’t be bothered when dealing with the tank.
I don’t think the scripted battle would be any good since no matter what you do, there always will be more machines coming. Currently, it’s random. If there are other machines in the hearing distance then you’ll get more machines in the battle and when there aren’t any, you can deal with your target alone. I like the randomness of it.
Sure, but the point being the Tank, when alone, would call for support because… why wouldn’t it. Why would it wait for other Bots in range to hear or just wait to die due to the kiting…
I do agree that there should not be endless waves coming ‘to the rescue’ though. Maybe a max of 2 groups can be called, together or one by one chosen randomly.
I think the support that comes to, for example, a tank, is perfectly balanced right now. Sometimes you get a ton of added enemies in your encounter, sometimes you get lucky and only have to worry about said tank.
If it were the case that support would stumble in every single time, it would get repetitive, predictable and quite frankly boring. Current system is pretty damn good imho.
If they did all these fixes, then no
But it would be a easy fix for the time being, If I had all the power to fix this game to my liking the machines would be much smarter, dodgeing when attacked, getting reinforcment.
the current ones dosen´t make much sens to have defeated the army when they can´t even defeat a group of 2 ppl
Heck even one person with propane tanks can take out the toughest enmies if you do some recon and place the strategically.
But point is, TANKs are to easy and it sounds like you somewhat agrees to that statement.
Apo TANks and prototpes are probabaly the least dangerus enemies in the game, even harversters do more damage and they are not even combat units.
And on the part of some of them see through walls cud be understood as some of them drop the “Object penetrating vision module” In general we can agree that an AI uppgraded cud be needed.
Randomnes is good, but sometimes a tank is blasting away with a 50cal HMG and rockets and nerby patrols in viewing distance dosen´t give acrap about it, as long as a stray bullet dosent fly towards them, and other tanks is even worse.
It cud be like a random chane for a module to spawn on the tank, give it a set time before it makes the sound, give you a chanse to destroy it before it gose off.
Also I thiink I know what tank you are talking about but most of the time its pretty easy to avoid tanks attacks and clean out the hunter squad in like 50-200 rounds (depending on what ammo you use)
Also tanks has a big problem navigating in forest and you can just walk behind a tree when they fire… FNIX hunters with there fletcher guns/darts are scary af tho. I don´t personally pick a fight with them if it´s not neccessary or that I put up an ambush
There are several key factors why Swedish army failed and why player char does seemingly better:
- Surprise attack - Swedish army was taken in surprise without any chance to mobilize and co-ordinate the troops. You, as a player, have plenty of time to stalk the machines and plan your moves. It’s not like machines are knocking on your front door and you have to defend yourself, your mates and your country (except one mission in game).
- Intel about enemy - Without any intel about the enemy, it’s next to impossible to mount any kind of effective defense or counter attack. Again, as player, you have plenty of time to learn the tactics about machines and collect intel about them (blueprints).
- Size and mobility - Player char is small, fast and agile compared to the platoon of troops. And that’s why it’s easier for a Tank to destroy entire platoon than player char who uses guerilla warfare (hit and run).
- Revive and respawn - Swedish army troops didn’t have the a-shot revives and respawns in safehouses. Take these two away and look how far you get.
If you feel like there should be more machines around when you’re dealing with the tank, drop a heavy comm array lure to the ground before/during fighting the tank. If there are any machines around, they will come.
But to force that feature to everyone doesn’t sit well with me. Why my gameplay must suffer so you can play yours better?
Btw, having more machines in the battle doesn’t make the tank itself any harder. Tank still remains the same as it was.
Add more HP/armor to tank and all you do is making tank even more bullet sponge than it already is, making dealing with tanks tedious. But make tanks smarter and now we are talking.
For example: FNIX tank has rocket pod and if you hide inside the house, thus breaking the line of sight, tank won’t fire on you. But if tank would be smarter, it would aim it’s rocket salvo to the closest window where it last saw you. Then shooting it’s rockets into the house through that window and damaging you via the splash damage of it’s rockets.
I disagree.
Surprise Attack: When the machines began their thing, key elements knew (scientists, techies, …, but also (military) leaders.
Machines just CANNOT take of, unspotted!!!
Intel: So the military has no clue of their OWN machines?
Nope, I do not buy that, no matter how.
Size and mobility: If a 17 year young numbwitt can kill a tank, a platoon SURELY can.
Revive and Respawn: They DID have the A-pens.
Heck, you find it ON them, in their bunkers, you name it.
No, miss, the machines are extremely flawed.
No matter what you throw into the equation.
Ever heard of Black Projects? That’s what FNIX and all the machines are, a one big black project. So, common soldiers or even base commanders don’t have a clue about them. Ever heard of term:“on a need-to-know basis”?
Side mission “Of Machines And Men”. Just listen to the audio tape that initiated the mission. In there, it’s clear that the army convoy is carrying a downed enemy, where team leader states that “it” needs to be airlifted to Stockholm. To study it better i guess.
Also, communications where the 1st ones to be taken out. And without that, you can’t mobilize the army, leaving each base / command post on it’s own. Easy pickings for the machines.
Side mission:“Scrap Metal”. In there, military platoon is wiped out, including Stridsvagn 103 tank. Most likely by the proto tank they were fighting with.
Either there were far more machines at d-day as there are now (army was overwhelmed) or machines have been considerably nerfed, so players can take them down.
There won’t be much of a game if you’re overwhelmed with 300+ machines or when they are so though that even army couldn’t put up a proper fight.
Then again, when you yourself are a machine (a theory i have), it wouldn’t be that hard to take out lesser machines than yourself.
What i’m interested is, was the a-shot effect same for the soldiers as it is for player? My guess would be no, since else-ways, you wouldn’t find any a-shots from soldiers.
The FNIX, sure.
Apoc?
Sure.
Proto and Military?
HELL NO!
The camo version is even named Military Class
Bizarre, as communication still is up, somewhat.
Especially military communication is VERY hard to interrupt.
Landlines and whatnot…
Even then, they have the Tech to see the machines coming from afar.
Peculiar, no?
What was that unit doing there, if they could not be alarmed, since comms were down?
We see tanks and soldiers in various places they should not have been during peace time…
Now, how many machines were involved there?
I do not know, but the soldiers seem to have focused on the Proto tank, if that was indeed the only assault machine…
The latter, OBVIOUSLY.
Because people don’t like hard, and especially not time consuming.
True… but are we machines?
Even then, if you look at how machines act, how fast they act?
Even 5 year olds with Nerf guns can take them on… and quite likely win.
And yet, one does.
Why, btw, would it have a different effect on players?
Special breed?
All points of the swe army being suprised I can get, also the revive/respawn is a game feature and ofc that would not make sence lore wise.
The adrenaline shoot in game dose not do that irl for exampel.
But I would imagine that the rockets on the tanks are HE based as they do pretty “large” explosions. They look to be more AP (anti personal) then anti armor. I cud be wrong tho as we dont know any exact information about ammounition of diffrent machines.
I have already said that I be ok with machines bing less tanky if there AI allowed them not to get stuck on… pretty much anything.
Coms array? that is weak. I like to have a small group of seekers with me, as they do no damage and calls upon everything around me. Its really useful way to get rivals to spawn.
Maybe they cud introduce a harder game mode for ppl like me and keep a “normal” dif for ppl like you?
I like the games I play to be a challenge, not a cake walk.
And yes gurrila tacticks are useful sometimes, but to be fair the army had acces to Strv103(fictional variant) tanks, and if you go from that a a buckshoot from a shoutgun can cripple a tank, then most anti armor weapons would do massive damage to “tanks”.
TL;DR Maybe ad a harder diff/challenge mode for ppl that want some more from the game -->
more enemis, slightly more hp maybe, less supplies, less ammo.
I woul be complety OK with
AI uppgrade > more armor
@KAELES-YT
Yes, the AI truly needs a redone even.
It’s like they got a 4-bit CPU and 8 byte of RAM, ATM.
Windows 3.2 just won’t properly run on it. XD
For you to assume that i want it easy is completely off. I’ve completed the vanilla game playing completely and strictly solo, without Plundra, Machine Loot, Bikes and Experimental Weapons. Since those weren’t in the game when GZ launched. You got it easy with all these game nerfs and OP 6* weapons.
Also, i have 4x chars, all of them lvl31, further info: What is your skill build?
Need i say more?
Having more machines at once to shoot at doesn’t make the game harder. It trivializes the game if anything. And more HP for machines just adds to the grind, again, doesn’t make game harder.
In the beginning, there was supply scarcity and if you wanted to have ammo to shoot, you needed to loot it from the world. Few months on-wards and most of the player base wanted to get most, if not all ammo back from the kill, rather than looting it from the world and devs changed that.
Now, you get first aid kits from most machines and gain about 80% of spent ammo back when taking down bigger machines (harvs/tanks). Introduced in June’s Update. From patch notes, read: “Machine Loot”.
With this, there’s much less initiative to explore and collect your gear (first aid kits and ammo) from looting.
Like i suggested, smarter machines play the biggest role in game’s difficulty but since we only have one difficulty level, devs can’t make game harder without considering those people who already find the game hard, even with all the nerfs and OP 6* weapons.
It seems most of us are in agreement that better AI for the Tanks (and other bots) would be much preferred to just ‘tanking them up’.
Tanks being able to wander in forests seems pretty strange in the first place TBH. If they could knock down trees then it would be a different matter.
As lvl 6* weapons are not locked to over lvl 25, new players will not have that option. I am level 14 now with mainly ‘good’ level weapons that I actually use plus a couple of exceptionals I don’t (shotgun / rife when I already have a ‘good’ .50cal ). Going around the first half of the story is really giving quite poor loot (story level not player level it seems).
Saying multiple enemies is a cheaper way of ramping up difficulty over improving AI I can totally agree with but saying having multiple enemies is not harder I can’t. How can it be easier or the same when you are being attacked from multiple sides relentlessly (staggered reloads etc).
Just throwing in more and more enemies can become very tedious though…
I finished clearing a bunker (Naval site IIRC) and came to a door to exit back to the outside world. Outside were some Hunters. I managed to kill them from inside and counted around 4. I then went to leave and suddenly there were more so I ran back in and disposed of another 3. Somehow one had got behind me and attacked from inside the bunker and I also managed to dispose of this one.
I then went out the door and got attacked by more hunters.
By the time I had killed around 18 Hunters and used up most of my ammo with no Hunter respawn end in sight I just ran for it. That was a very frustrating time.
Well I also have a char that is lower lvl then 20 that I use to play with my lower lvl friends but also to try out the stuff I been talking about here.
Question: “How can it be easier or the same when you are being attacked from multiple sides relentlessly”
Answear: If you have noticed that enemies explode when you kill them through shooting out fueltanks? Well if you have you probably know that that dose damage, now take that and shoot enemies close togheter and you will see a big chain of explosions. many enmies = high potential for a well placed shoot to destroy them all (slug on the 3* semi auto shotgun) or just a fuel cansister that you find like 6 of in any industrial warehouse.
If they cud knock down trees that be cool
They can allready wander in forests but as they need a second to identify you and you move with objects inbetween you and the tank = it can´t fully see you.
Personallys I love when several big packs of hunters show up, that is a fight worth having as it´s good AI (mostly) they are everywhere, they are dangerus. It´s just a great machup. Also if you would happen to run out of ammo, highly doubth unless your on a gamepad.
Then you can just stand still for a while (no visual/no noise) and then you shoul go away after a while, unless they got OPV. Or u just die and respawn in a “safe” location as there is currently no penelity for dying. Guess the second option dosent work if you are doing a “no death run”
I wish you the best of luck in the future!