Lately I have been playing some GZ with friends, and TANKs and Harvesters has massive problems dealing with more then one player.
Even when playing solo I rarly fear TANKs as they are not as dangerus as Military/FNIX hunters. (gas/fletcher rounds)
Even the new apocalypse TANK MIRV artillery minefield is more of a annoyance then a threat. They are very easy to avoid and very slow most of the time, you can just walk around them (around 5-10m from them) and they will be stuck turning, if you go closer they stomp you.
I don´t fear tanks anymore, they are more like someting I run towards for the expâŚ
IMO They should add more armor and possibly new weapons for TANKs when you go above certain lvl:s
I am roughy lvl 25 with my original char and with a few exp or 5* weapons TANKs are realy not a problem.
I know harvesesters are not really combat machines but they cud at least be a little more active then standing still shooting rockets if you happen to go infront of them. And there suport groups are some shitty runners that you can deal with in like 30s.
I agree.
At least with the right equipment, you could call Tanks too easy. With a 6* PVG90 you can quickly pick off both their weapons, leaving them nothing more than a bullet sponge, really.
The Apoc Tanks are too easy because of the mortar/mine attack they have, like you said. The geography of Himfjäll helps a lot too. Just stand in a steep hill and the mines will roll down right past you. And even though their machineguns have a long range, they tend to not use them, for some strange reason. The FNIX Tank is actually the most dangerous of the 4 types, without good cover those rocket barrages will seriously kick your butt!
If they intend to make Tanks harder, they should give their exposed weapons better protection, or maybe give the Tank a third weapon, integrated in itâs body?
@KAELES-YT
Machines in general are extremely off.
Hunters are annoying, nothing else.
The only ones I somewhat respect are missile runners.
The rest have the threat level of Barbie and Ken, for me.
Armour and/or life extension will not fix this.
Yesterday in the stream, sir Pontus engaged a machine that just stood there, wondering why that ugly bipod life form was shooting at it.
The general intelligence of machines is extremely lacking, and no amount of armour or HP will ever fix thatâŚ
I think they could improve the difficulty, but I donât agree that the way to go about it is by adding more armor/health, since I donât think thatâs a good way of adding difficulty.
Making them eat even more bullets before going down will only make the fights more tedious, not interesting.
Imho, the way to address this would be to look at their behavior (ai if you will).
Tanks for example are able to charge at you. Now they donât tend to do that unless theyâve lost their weapons. This is one area you could improve their difficulty, but utilizing this charge attack much more frequently (used at random, so you never know when to expect it).
You could also add to the difficulty by having them predict your movement more when the player tries to kite their attacks, where they aim there attacks at (not overdoing it, but a slight tweak). You can compare it with, for example bots in Quake, and how they predict where youâll be when they shoot their rockets.
When people are in close proximity, they could use their stomp attack more often.
And when it comes to multiplayer, the Flanking skill is too powerful, since you can easily lock down an enemey completly just by shooting at it. While I love that particular skill, it can make any fight trivial.
Still, we also have to remember that whatâs easy for one of you, is very hard for someone else.
So as long as there is no difficulty setting in the game, itâs a fine balance to keep the majority of the playerbase happy and keep the game at a decent challenge level for most people.
But making them more tanky may meen that you wont rush into them willingly. Biggest problem is that they can´t mulitask at all.
Hunters need to move more and not get stuck in windows, only hunters that is a threat is the ones with railguns that can shoot through walls. But TANKs feel like they are suposed to feel more dangerus⌠but they real are not.
I dont mean that they should make a apoc TANK stand outside the spawn when you walk out to the cop car at the start
I just say that when you reach past a specifik lvl maybe the enmies should become harder, as you say the stagger skill can be incredible good as a stun lock.
I posted about a more agressiv TANK variation earlier on the forum.
Like make enemies harder when you lvl up, much like Fallout 4. first when you like lvl 60+ in that you start to see cameliondeathclaws.
I play the game for the gameplay but now my lowest rarity weapon is a AG4 5* and I got no problems facing several FNIX tanks by myself, biggest problem is several patrolls of hunters <10, but then if you got a building you cna just peak and shoot themâŚ
Iâm taking a moment to remember what fighting Tanks felt like early in the gameâŚ
I was doing the mission, The Girl Who Cried Wolf. When I got to Veronikaâs village, KĂĽlleby, there were 2 Military Tanks patrolling the streets! I had to sneak around them to complete the mission. It was really terrifying! A few times they spotted me and blew me away with their rockets! One of them walked off, away from the town, so I decided to fight the other one. I had a pistol, a Kpist, an AG4 and a .270 Rifle. I didnât have much ammo, and not too many medkits. I think I ran around the town for 30 minutes, popping out from corners, shooting a few rounds every time. At last I was all out of ammo and meds, so I gave up and quit! The Tank won! Those were the days, haha!
No, more tankey just is not the solution.
Increased aggro range, increased aggression, faster response times, defensive manoeuvring, THAT will increase the threat level FAR more than just slapping on armour on machines that do not even get it to attack you.
If you have a sick tree with leaves turning green, you need to fix the roots, not paint these leaves green, right?
And adding armour is painting the leavesâŚ
More tanky is not the only fix, never ment that. just look at the OP lvls in BL2, it´s kinda boring to hit a boss with
25´942´739´124´224 HP with guns that do 1´000´000 * 0.02 = actual damage. (OP8) Nobody plays that raidboss and likes it. anyway back to GZâŚ
They need a new rewamped AI over evrything, but when you can hit a tank with >10 well placed shoots with the PVG90
(5* or 6*) and then they drop like 20x 50cal shells⌠well they are just not tanky enough imo, they should be a little more tanky late game imo. lvl 20-25+
Or maybe you like the game to be a cake walk? :I
I just made a statement from my experience playing the game, nothing that is âwriten in stoneâ
They are called tank but they act more like a glass cannon if you got anything with AP rounds.
I respect your opinions tho It´s good to have many diffrent opinions in a discussion. But lets ignore the armor thing for now, what changes would make tanks scary again in your opinion?
As I see it: if they tweak the âmachine intellectâ right, the current armour ratings will even need to be halved, if not even quartered.
Imagine a Tank, FNIX class, AS IS RIGHT NOW, with a 300m aggro range, keen senses (bound/limited to LoS and hearing range, of course, they cannot see through mountains or houses, logically!), the understanding to actually react to this in the correct way, the understanding to dodge and take cover if needed, with a fair accuracy.
Do you think, it would need more armour still?
Or⌠would it even need the CURRENT armour/HP amount still?
Or heck, even the current damage rating???
So far they did just that with the Apo machines, basically: just slap even more armour and HP on it, and sure, they are harder to take down⌠time wise and ammo wise.
But they are still just as dumb!!!
For an Apo Tank: get to high ground and they are rendered totally harmless by that move alone (unless just now fixed that is).
While needing more time and ammo to kill it, did it actually get harder?
Perhaps they could let seekers act as spotters to direct mortar fire, allowing tanks to bombard you from longer distances (if the tank is within a reasonable range from the seeker and the playerâŚ)
Well, they are, if you know where to look.
Hint: Rivals.
Make Apo tank a rival (kill spawn or score spawn). Donât engage it until it has levelled up to lvl4. Once itâs lvl4, go after it. If lvl4 rival (especially Apo tank) isnât tanky enough for you then i donât know what could be.
I agree with Xogrorothâs idea of making machines smarter, rater than tougher.
A smart machine with e.g 100 HP is far bigger of a challenge than dumb machine with e.g 1000 HP.
Having fought a tank with some poisonous sniper gun from range with a âgoodâ PSG90 I went through over 100 .50 rounds (level 13 - no points in shooting skills).
Sure the tank was walking back and forth behind some trees so some of the shots most likely hit the tree / branches / leaves hit boxes but stillâŚ
That just felt tedious.
Fighting a tank equipped with different weapons (ie. rockets) would have been much harder.
Suggestions;
Better AI / tactics (as most have already mentioned).
Better support - ability to call in support by the tank. Support arrives from a random direction and is of a random type (runners / hunters/tanks ).
Part of the problem is that you pick off the tank support units and then can, at your leisure whittle away at the tank. If support arrives from a random direction after a random amount of time then you are always looking over your shoulder and time is more urgent.
I think part of the issue is that the higher level weapons (esp the experimental) are just too strong and never have any form of risk (reliability issues). Throw that in to the mix and suddenly there is another element of uncertainty.
Keeping the player off balance and challenged is better than tanking up the tanks.
That is in the game already in form of making noise. If you create a racket and when there are machines around, they will come to investigate what is going on.
More than often, iâve seen that happening.
One time, i was at the Mountains. Saw lone FNIX tank. Went after it in the middle of dense forest and on the slope (just NE from the time machine). I was about half-way done with the tank when suddenly, FNIX hunter patrol showed up.
My life went considerably harder at that point. Not only i had to navigate between trees and on the slope, i also had to keep tabs on the FNIX tank and all FNIX hunters who showed up so i wonât get flanked, while juggling weapons and first aid kits, avoiding incoming attacks and also aiming the weapon to land hits.
That was some doing, but fun.
Of course, if you clear out the area first and leave the tank for last then you probably wonât be bothered when dealing with the tank.
I donât think the scripted battle would be any good since no matter what you do, there always will be more machines coming. Currently, itâs random. If there are other machines in the hearing distance then youâll get more machines in the battle and when there arenât any, you can deal with your target alone. I like the randomness of it.
Sure, but the point being the Tank, when alone, would call for support because⌠why wouldnât it. Why would it wait for other Bots in range to hear or just wait to die due to the kitingâŚ
I do agree that there should not be endless waves coming âto the rescueâ though. Maybe a max of 2 groups can be called, together or one by one chosen randomly.
I think the support that comes to, for example, a tank, is perfectly balanced right now. Sometimes you get a ton of added enemies in your encounter, sometimes you get lucky and only have to worry about said tank.
If it were the case that support would stumble in every single time, it would get repetitive, predictable and quite frankly boring. Current system is pretty damn good imho.
But it would be a easy fix for the time being, If I had all the power to fix this game to my liking the machines would be much smarter, dodgeing when attacked, getting reinforcment.
the current ones dosen´t make much sens to have defeated the army when they can´t even defeat a group of 2 ppl
Heck even one person with propane tanks can take out the toughest enmies if you do some recon and place the strategically.
But point is, TANKs are to easy and it sounds like you somewhat agrees to that statement.
Apo TANks and prototpes are probabaly the least dangerus enemies in the game, even harversters do more damage and they are not even combat units.
And on the part of some of them see through walls cud be understood as some of them drop the âObject penetrating vision moduleâ In general we can agree that an AI uppgraded cud be needed.
Randomnes is good, but sometimes a tank is blasting away with a 50cal HMG and rockets and nerby patrols in viewing distance dosen´t give acrap about it, as long as a stray bullet dosent fly towards them, and other tanks is even worse.
It cud be like a random chane for a module to spawn on the tank, give it a set time before it makes the sound, give you a chanse to destroy it before it gose off.
Also I thiink I know what tank you are talking about but most of the time its pretty easy to avoid tanks attacks and clean out the hunter squad in like 50-200 rounds (depending on what ammo you use)
Also tanks has a big problem navigating in forest and you can just walk behind a tree when they fire⌠FNIX hunters with there fletcher guns/darts are scary af tho. I don´t personally pick a fight with them if it´s not neccessary or that I put up an ambush
There are several key factors why Swedish army failed and why player char does seemingly better:
Surprise attack - Swedish army was taken in surprise without any chance to mobilize and co-ordinate the troops. You, as a player, have plenty of time to stalk the machines and plan your moves. Itâs not like machines are knocking on your front door and you have to defend yourself, your mates and your country (except one mission in game).
Intel about enemy - Without any intel about the enemy, itâs next to impossible to mount any kind of effective defense or counter attack. Again, as player, you have plenty of time to learn the tactics about machines and collect intel about them (blueprints).
Size and mobility - Player char is small, fast and agile compared to the platoon of troops. And thatâs why itâs easier for a Tank to destroy entire platoon than player char who uses guerilla warfare (hit and run).
Revive and respawn - Swedish army troops didnât have the a-shot revives and respawns in safehouses. Take these two away and look how far you get.
If you feel like there should be more machines around when youâre dealing with the tank, drop a heavy comm array lure to the ground before/during fighting the tank. If there are any machines around, they will come.
But to force that feature to everyone doesnât sit well with me. Why my gameplay must suffer so you can play yours better?
Btw, having more machines in the battle doesnât make the tank itself any harder. Tank still remains the same as it was.
Add more HP/armor to tank and all you do is making tank even more bullet sponge than it already is, making dealing with tanks tedious. But make tanks smarter and now we are talking.
For example: FNIX tank has rocket pod and if you hide inside the house, thus breaking the line of sight, tank wonât fire on you. But if tank would be smarter, it would aim itâs rocket salvo to the closest window where it last saw you. Then shooting itâs rockets into the house through that window and damaging you via the splash damage of itâs rockets.
Those were the days, haha! 
).