GZ... too darn soft?

So, just seconds ago in Discord, people (removed names to protect the guilt… erm, innocent :stuck_out_tongue: ) and I were talking, and we agreed that GZ is too soft.
We would like to see Death Penalty, for instance, where when you die, you lose half your stats and skill points for X amount of time, the effects wearing off as “you get better”.

Machines should be FAR more menacing, becoming the threat they should be, the ones that vaporized the army.
This would mean: increased response time, increased awareness, increased aggression range.
One would not need to slap more armour to the machines, boosting the three stats mentioned would do the trick.
Machines would spot you from 400m (that is, on open fields and so, where this CAN be happening), and react immediately.

Maybe Adren should be removed entirely, as this too affects the ‘reality’ of the game.
With we are literally in god-mode.
And the lack of fear for death… we believe is a game/immersion killer.

Thoughts?

Note: @pegnose
Sir, as per my promise to you… not a wall of text. :wink:
Enjoy, my friend.

Highly appreciated! :slight_smile:

Now let me completely object your suggestion. In a separate hardcore mode? Sure. In the base game? Let’s not overdo it.

Adrenaline is a convenience thing, and one used up pretty quickly, if you don’t know what you are doing in fights. Without it I would get rather quickly annoyed, and I have some experience by now in fights. I mainly use it in co-op just to not slow down things for my buddies. I like it that way. Of course you can use field radios, but… It takes longer and a penalty by mere time is not really one, just an annoyance I have stopped playing other games for.

My main concern, however, is that your suggestions would make the game far too hard for new players, turning them away. It is really important for gems like GZ to increase its player numbers. Any tweaking on the difficulty should absolutely not affect the early to mid game and should otherwise be handled with max care to ensure it is always appropriate to players proficiency. Game difficulty is a very delicate balance.

You probably mean “decreased”.

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An optional hardcore mode could definitely use some tougher machines. It would be a fitting element to have, I think. If the engine can handle it, that is.

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@pegnose
DAMN, I forgot to say this, yes optional, or Game+…
I am SO sorry…
That happens when I need to shorten my posts… LOL.
JK, my friend…
My ADHD made me overlook it.

Now, from my personal PoV, I bought the game, hoping it to be almost a horror game, where hearing a machine would mean: soil yourself in epic way.
Not “another shoot’m’up’n’loot” thing, like there are a billion of in existence.
But that is me.

Thank you for your input, and my apologies for the part I forgot.

Wouldn’t MUCH (could not help it) faster reaction be an increase in response time?

@Zesiir
Thank you, sir.
And yes, it would be indeed optional…

I am the last to enforce something on a person. :slight_smile:

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FWIW, In my experience, the game sort of “tops out” later in the game. Ending up farming the highest tier enemies (FNIX; hunters and tanks) for meta-game challenges should not happen. Maybe that is what the new Apocalypse tier is for: continuing the difficulty curve. Let’s see what the new DLC/update has on board before continuing this discussion?

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I disagree that it’s too soft.
It’s hard enough as it is for some people. Being good at it doesn’t mean it’s easy. If you’ve finished the game, thoroughly beaten it, then congrats to you. Don’t forget plenty of others are still getting murdered by the runners outside the church.

If I die, I feel like I’ve failed, and I really hate it. I try very hard to stay alive, and I usually succeed. My deaths typically come from co-op, trying to keep other people alive. I fear death.
I fear hunters and tanks, and in various places the runners too. I still have my “oh no” moments with seekers. And I’m not bad at the game. Recently I discovered a new safe house, one of the readiness shelters, and outside were four or five runners, a harvester and two tanks, all FNIX. A squad of hunters showed up shortly after, and I still managed to make the safe house safe without leaning on the PVG90. It was scary the whole time too!

I’m immersed, I buy in to the story, the world, the situations, and I have a lot of fun with it. I wonder if you’ve popped out of the game word and into the meta? I wonder if you look at encounters with a more abstract problem-solving eye?

If anything, I think the AI might have been simplified for performance, and improving that might be the change you’re looking for. Perhaps connect it to the presence of relays.

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@pegnose
Well, I DO hope the Apocalypse machines are much, MUCH more intelligent…
Right now, I feel absolutely no threat from machines.
Which I find severely immersion-breaking…
But that is me. :slight_smile:

@Flick
Excuse me, sir, but what platform are you on?
And do note, as I forgot to mention afore (my apologies), it would be entirely optional. :slight_smile:

Miss. And I’m on PC.

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@Flick
My sincere apologies, I could not see your gender, miss.
In what regard, if I may ask, are the machines hard?
I’m trying to understand, my question is not an insult or so…

The account image/avatar could have given it away. :wink:

Ok, it not always does. But we male gamers tend to assume that everyone, irrespective of character or avatar gender, is indeed a dude.

BACK to the topic: I do think there is also a difference in time investment at play. Some of us get a couple of hours in now and then and do some missions and some running around. Some of us are clearly living in the game, on a regular basis. For those the game gets boring faster. Naturally. A game must be able to also accommodate the casuals among us.

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A certain inclination towards fear does help the atmosphere. I can attest to that. :slight_smile:

@Flick And now I said that you are a generally frightened casual. I did not mean it like that! Sometimes I feel that some of our gamer fellows have better antennas for the atmosphere part. And habituation due to long time exposure almost always changes your mind set. These lines better represent my intended message.

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How are the machines hard? The machines are dangerous and can kill you quick if you’re not situationally aware enough to take action. Bullets are still dangerous when you’re not getting out of the way. I’ve seen people trying to fight tanks out in the open and get cut down over again. I’ve followed lone runners into an ambush multiple times. The robots have blown up cars, canisters, or the power box on houses used for shelter. You can’t just stand there shooting, and not everyone works that out very quickly.
It’s easier to tip the balance in your favour if you’re using lures and smoke appropriately, firing from cover, aiming intelligently. I find it’s still a battle for initiative, and if you’re head’s not screwed on you’ll end up like a meaty colander. Over on steam there are quite a few threads about folks struggling with the robots for one reason or another. Struggling with the castle, or wondering why the RPG does “low damage”, or…

@pegnose The other clue is that my nick is shortened from flicka, a nickname I picked up years ago. It’s a bit generic on the internet, but there you go.
And no worries, I took no offence. I choose to buy in, because it’s so much more fun than exploiting code and gamifying the experience. Having a co-op buddy with similar intent also helps, because we can share the oh no! and the yikes! moments when I’m not playing solo. We get the tension build up when a squad approaches and the chaos when things don’t go to plan. I’ve tried the ‘roaming for kills’ style, and it feels a lot more empty to me.
I love the atmosphere, it’s got most of my favourite things in it.

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@Flick
Do you have music on, miss, while playing?
I turn mine entirely off, and I hunt by sound…

I can tell which machines are where (once I can hear them), about how many there are, type…
Quite handy.
Also, do you use the terrain?
Do you run, or are you static?
Trying to grasp your play style here… :slight_smile:

@pegnose
Indeed.
I would not like to deprive those that are having a harder time in GZ, for whatever reason.
I am so darned lucky in this regard: ADHD and Aspergers, I have fairly good reaction time, situational awareness… and so, I can adapt fast.
My personal issue is in town type environment, as I am a circling predator, and stuff just is in the way when I enter towns.
Even some farms can be deadly to me.
ALL my deaths are from places where housing is, or cars, or…
In “open field” then, I truly shine.
That is where I am in my element.
Hence, I look up these “open fields” and try to avoid more civilized areas.

I prefer fighting hunters in mildly populated forest areas with rather even ground. Those trees really seem to work in my favor cover/distraction wise.

@pegnose
I agree.
One can evade a tree faster than a house, no? XD

I don’t think this topic will ever die. I’m sure that the devs are aware of us players diverging inclinations, and I’m confident that they will decide what to do with it without us taking a vote😉

Wise lady. So do I. A lot. Too many close encounters IRL. I feel exactly like you describe when playing.

Yes. And to me it is a game. Entertainment, when I have a moment off. It must be fun. Challenging, yes, but I don’t want the game to scream “DIE YOU MOTHERF#&!$R DIE DIE DIE!!!” at me all the time I play it. If I want abuse, I’m sure I could find that elsewhere.

Sure, that is a fine idea. Or try @Zesiir’s hardcore mode, rumor has it that it’s pretty tough :wink: Or we could just have a damage dial, that reduce damage inflicted by the weapons with an adjustable factor. A “Nerf My Guns” setting. My guess is that it could be implemented in a matter of hours :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m sure some full time gamers will claim that the machines are all so easy to kill, just hop along and wave your gun. Good for you, guys, I acknowledge your skills and talent. That’s not me, however, and I don’t want it to be. If I get to the point where fighting the machines become boring, I’ve probably played way too much and neglected other things I should have been doing instead :slightly_smiling_face:

So, I confidently put this issue and what to do with it in the capable hands of the developers :wink:

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@Xogroroth We might be getting off topic, but it’s your thread…

I have the usual sound and music on, yes. It’s nice for the atmosphere.
I can identify robots by faint sound, and have a pretty good idea where they are and what they’re doing. The bug with dead robots, houses and random spots on the ground playing the wrong noises does throw me.
My play style depends on the local environment, what I’m dealing with and who I’m with, if co-op. I prefer to see what I’m working with up front, though that isn’t always possible. Given a good location, I might use a lure like a radio or comm array to make sure there aren’t surprise visitors. Typically I prefer to snipe weaker robots, or do some component damage on the larger ones as they approach. Seekers I’ll try to snipe their thruster so they go down quickly, quietly, and with a chance to leave me a comm array. With hunters, if I can get a safe place to shoot from, I’ll work from there. If we’re in the open, I’ll keep moving, and hit any not paying attention in any weak spot available. I’m reasonably good at dodging their lunge attack. With tanks, I’ll work from cover and take turns with them as they fire. I’ll hit whatever I can, usually the face, a weapon, the back… I might stun it and run up with some canisters too.
As for terrain, I use everything in the vicinity, as Master Splinter taught us. If I can get terrain between me and the bottom of a tank, I’ll use it to limit its ability to shoot me while I can still shoot it. I try to put trees, rocks, other robots, etc between me and firing guns. I try to trick robots into being close to things I can blow up with less effort, or let them blow them up for me[1]. I’ll use flares and fireworks and hit the robots while distracted. Flares can move robots to places where you can see them better while under cover, and I don’t mind shooting through two aligned windows right across a house or barn. I like putting stickies on the bigger robots. I’ll happily use EMPs if the situation would be helped by it and I’m gutsy enough to run up to an angry tank to do it if I think I’ll get away with it. Recently I’ve been getting into more offensive use of fuel cells and red canisters, deploying them or moving them during combat, not just rolling them off a high spot onto robots below. If cover is sparse or I’m in a crossfire, I’ll consider using a smoke screen for protection, or as with tanks, use the smoke to shield from their cannon and shoot through with IR.
I aim for weak points and component damage, including disabling robots’ weapons and armour plating. If it sparks a lot, it’s a good target. If it stops sparking, I’ll shoot it somewhere else. I’m wary of taking both guns off a tank, unless it’s trapped or we’re in the woods - I’d rather have one predictable weapon to deal with.
I’m not static. Even if I’m stuck in a hut, I’ll move a lot. In the open, I’ll move around if I’m sniping, and run around in the mix if it’s CQC. In urban environments, I’ll use houses and shops like a big tree, and if I have a buddy, try to get robots boxed in or in a cross fire. The advantange to the houses is most have a wide range free EMP available[2] and often some cars to blow up if I’m working with hunters.

I’m using a gold Sjöqvist Semi-Auto for CQC and a gold Älgstudsare Hunting Rifle with IR and OPV vision mod for sniping, backed up with an experimental Automatgevär 4 as a multi role weapon. I have an experimental Klaucke 17 as a side arm, which I’ll use in a battle if I need close up precision and/or high rate of fire, depending on available ammunition (e.g. I don’t have the time to reload the shotgun, and there’s a rocket dog looking at me from a few feet away). My (what do you call the 4-7 buttons?) quick item belt thingy holds two kinds of health packs (big and small), a flare/firework, and either an explosive or EMP, depending. I do dip into inventory in combat if I need to swap something around.

My deaths tend to be where I’ve got stuck on scenery during a rocket attack or I’ve run into trouble trying to resurrect someone. If I’m hurt badly, I’ll take cover and heal myself, or back off for a safer location to fight from.

I don’t like kiting tanks. It feels mechanical and like a grind, despite my strategy for ducking in and out of cover beingtechnically similar.
If you’re terminally curious, here’s a clip of how I handle a bit of CQC chaos in the woods. There are extra fireworks because my friend here isn’t agile and prefers to snipe, and I hate letting my buddies get killed. https://vimeo.com/375477704This got suspended. I don’t know why but I’m not contesting. So just ignore it.

This might have been more information than you were really asking for, but I hope it gives you a little insight into my style.

[1] At Granhygget there’s a lovely spot for a mine between the gas tank and the tractor!
[2] Relays are also free EMPs, handy if you’re overwhelmed.

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Some nice ideas included, @Flick!

I like the smoke+IR strat, or luring enemies to huge gas tanks with flares. Should be a perfect application for sticky flares (better visibility of sticking to the top).

My thoughts on your thougts:

  • I always take out the Seekers’ horns first, then they are harmless.
  • It feels too hard for me to take of the weapons off tanks: maybe a waste of ammo?
  • Blue sparks are the best, no?
  • Shotguns just deal too little damage, particularly the semi-auto one. My purple AI-76 is my new best friend, took the edge off of many things out here. Easier to control, high damage output with high fire rate for those brief moments of well placed salves.

But ok, I play without experimental weapons.

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Glad to see I’m not the only one using that spot to ambush Hunters.

Dude, they’re made of metal!

You may have out-X-ed X. :smile:

YKINMKBYKIOK

Yup.

People also want different things. Some people want for it to remain hard for the duration. Others want to improve their technique, get the best gear, and then, having “paid their dues” eventually have god-like powers (or at least have mastered their surroundings).

Agreed. I like the difficulty fine the way it is, but I would like to add that I’m puzzled when people (not you) say a game needs to be “more challenging.” Sod “challenging”, say I! I have a job! When I’m in the mood for a challenge, I’ll grab an interesting problem at work, clock some overtime, and get paid. Why on earth would I want to rise up to a game’s challenge for free instead? :smile:

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