Well done, Pontus. It was a great video, and the DEVs need to hear it. There’s always been a battle between the “Immersives” (like me and Aesyle) and the “Shoot-em-ups” (like Tene). We do wonder if there’s anyone in the DEV team on our side? In the Avalanche team meetings, is there anyone who is hotly arguing our side?
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You say this like I’m voting against you in some way. So to check you on this, I’d be very happy to see more immersive features brought to the game. Just because I play the game a certain way doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like to see certain things looked at.
But, I’m fine letting the team do their thing and just be happy with the game I enjoy.
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Bless you Tene, I wasn’t criticising! I don’t criticise my friends, I was just giving you as the example that everyone would recognise, just as Aesyle is the perfect example of the Immersives. We have the debate out here - what I want to know is whether the debate still exists in DEV-land.
BTW, you have seen my video, haven’t you? 
And taken on board my inside-the-base challenge? You were telling me to get on and make a video 18 months ago, and I finally did it. So I hope you “liked” it! I shall make some more, now, so best subscribe, eh? 
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Inside the base is the way forward.
There’s no point building a base to run around it.
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Hmm, not necessarily. 
I think running around the base, which is primarily there to protect the command center, is also a valid strategy. Especially if the base is as small as can be, so you can get to the attackers quickly. 
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You’re a youtuber in the making my dude! And honestly im amazed it finally happened, keep an eye out for a comment from me when i have the chance to give it a watch.
but see this here;
there is no debate man, again i’d 1000% love to see immersive things come to the game if thats what the devs chose to focus on, but for now the focus is clearly 1; fix up the map 2; add beneficial content through story updates, content drops etc 3; optimize and fix bugs.
There is no question at all that the team would love to do immersive things too, but currently in terms of this as a product its just not the best call yet man. But there will be a day when it is!
(ofc again this is just my 2c and my observations, not fact but i’d say im not far off the mark)
Gunna have to agree with you here 
Why have a 20 minute wave defence when it can be done in 8. Sure maybe fun for once or twice depending on the base build, but definitely not meta.
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I liked the base building part for a while. I have built my third base, but don’t do any wave defence any more. Mostly because there is nothing to gain, but enjoyment. 
And I do not necessary like combat that much. I am more a story- and explorer guy. Love sneaky gameplay.
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The community is growing. In time we will reveal ourselves lol
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'Cos it’s a challenge! Design a base you can defend from inside - different mind-set. We know you can run round fields, and so can we, but can you design a base and defend it from inside? We have yet to find out… 
You can watch my video for some tips if you’re nervous!
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@Gysbert That’s totally fair man! It’s something you can leave for off days when you feel bored and want something to do in the game
@Bootie I will take on the challenge at some point, but I won’t need any tips, thanks though! The apprentice doesn’t teach the master.
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Haven’t seen it yet!
If you like sneaky gameplay and Generation Zero check out The Light Keeps us safe if you just want sneaky gameplay on general look through steam or check out Sir, You Are Being Hunted it’s not perfect but it’s OK I guess. Hope that helped you if you didn’t need help your welcome for trying 
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Thanks for your feedback, can you please elaborate on what exactly you find grindy, and what you think it can be done to fix this issue?
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How GZ is grindy
Here, i’ll talk about several game aspects.
- Weapons, including weapon attachments, from normal machine loot pool.
Every time a machine is destroyed, there is RNG and random chance that you can get the weapon or weapon attachment from that machine. RNG alone makes the grind part.
For example:
I’ve played GZ from launch and bought Alpine Unrest DLC as soon as it was released. To this date, i have found only one! KVM 89 from machine loot pool and that was 3* version. The same quality as can be found in Himfjäll at known spawn point. But i have found several 4* and 5* KVM 89 attachments.
Same actually goes for KVM 59 as well. Highest quality i’ve ever found is 4* KVM 59. But i’ve found 6-7 6* experimental KVM 59s. Oh, i have no issue finding KVM 59 attachments either, in any quality. It’s the weapon itself, that is the rarest weapon drop. At least in my game.
- Experimental weapons from Rival loot pool.
Here, the same method is used. Every time a Rival is destroyed, there is RNG and random chance that you can get the experimental weapon from that machine. Sure, higher level rival increases the chance of getting experimental weapon but it still is a “chance”.
For example:
I’ve gotten experimental weapons from level 1 rivals quite often, while when i go through the trouble to level up the rival to level 4, often i don’t get any weapon.
- Apparel schematics from Rival loot pool.
Just like with weapons and attachments, there is also RNG and a chance to get apparel crafting schematic from rival loot pool.
Since the drop is so rare, i only have some of the 3*, 4* and 5* apparel schematics. Though, in the forums, people who have found almost all of them, say that there are duplicate drops, making collecting them all even harder.
I, personally, have not seen the duplicate apparel schematic drops in my game, but i only have 24 3*, 4*, and 5* apparel schematics in total, out of 69. But if duplicates are a thing, chances of getting the last 1-2 out of 69 are slim. And when RNG is also put into the mix, chances drop considerably.
What can be done
Here, i’ll talk about several ideas what can be done.
- Bad luck protection
Our previous CoMa, Graham, presented to us a “bad luck protection” in 12th Feb 2020 dev stream.
His explanation is at 00:52:28, link: Twitch
What Graham is talking about, is essentially where when player has killed X amount of machines, the drop after that is guaranteed.
This reduces the grind considerably since now, there won’t be RNG when it comes to the chance of getting the item from machine loot pool. But there still would be RNG of what item you’d be getting, leaving some grind behind.
- Guaranteed drops
When GZ 1st launched, there were guaranteed 5* weapon drops from FNIX tanks and about 50% chance to get 5* weapon attachment as well. Drop chance was lower on FNIX harvesters, about 50% chance for a 5* weapon and 20% chance for a 5* attachment.
That system worked well, since you could find 1* to 4* weapons and 1* to 5* attachments from the world just fine (either known spawn point or from loot crates) and 5* weapons dropped only from the toughest machine (FNIX tank and FNIX harv), complemented by the chance of 5* weapon attachment drop.
But with that nice system, there was a problem. There were players in the game who didn’t want to play the game as it was intended (explore, find loot boxes, collect your ammo from the world), instead, they wanted to get the loot from the machines they destroyed.
So, in the June '19 update, the devs implemented the system where you can get first aid kits from enemies and 80% of wasted ammo back when taking down harvs/tanks.
“Machine loot” - June Update Now Live | Generation Zero
That change brought the RNG to the game, making finding any weapon/attachment, and now, apparel schems, from machine loot pool, a gind.
At current date, players can craft all ammo types + even experimental ammo if they so desire. And the loot crates amount isn’t dropped in the game world either. Instead there are now more loot crates in revamped parts of the map than there were in vanilla game, presenting a question:
Do we still need to get the 80% spent ammo back from the (bigger) machines we just killed?
I say: No.
Here, i think that devs should undo the “Machine Loot” change and go back how things were, where:
- each machine drops the ammo they used against you (e.g .50 cal from tanks, rockets from harvs)
- you won’t get any ammo you used against the machine from that machine (e.g finding 9mm handgun ammo from tank loot pool)
- there is a guaranteed 5* weapon drop from toughest machine (apo tank)
- there is a good chance of getting 5* weapon and 5* weapon attachment from 2nd toughest machine (apo harv)
- proto, mil and FNIX class of machines won’t be dropping any weapons and attachments
- no more simple and standard first aid kits from machine loot pool. Only advanced first aid kit has a small chance (20%) to be dropped from toughest machines (apo tank and harv)
- Experimental weapons
Since experimental weapons are late-game weapons, they are locked behind character level of 25. This is a good move. However, to lessen the grind of finding them and to give rival leveling up far more value, the following weapon drop chances can be implemented:
Rival level 1 = 0% chance of experimental weapon drop
Rival level 2 = 25% chance of experimental weapon drop
Rival level 3 = 50% chance of experimental weapon drop
Rival level 4 = 100% guaranteed experimental weapon drop
This way, there is value of why to go through the trouble of leveling up a rival, since when you’ve maxxed out rival level, there is a guarantee that you’ll get an experimental weapon from it. Though, what that weapon exactly is, is still RNG.
- Apparel schematics
Just like experimental weapons drop chance i suggested above, same can be done with apparel schematics drop chance as well. Where;
Rival level 1 = 0% chance of apparel schematic drop
Rival level 2 = 25% chance of apparel schematic drop
Rival level 3 = 50% chance of apparel schematic drop
Rival level 4 = 100% guaranteed apparel schematic drop
This way, all players, including those who aren’t level 25 yet, can get the 3*, 4* or 5* apparel schematic, if they go through the trouble of leveling it up, rather than killing it as soon as it has spawned.
And to protect against duplicate drops, game can check your current apparel schematics, so that there won’t be any duplicate drops.
Thanks for reading. 
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Well talk about good timing. It’s not finished but I am currently working on a video about this very thing, though it covers more than just grinding. It’s easier if you just wait and watch it when it’s out, because writing everything here would take me ages. Anyway, what I’ll say is that because everything in terms of loot is centered around killing machines. Despite crafting material being around the world, it’s simply just faster and less boring to kill machines. However since everything is random it leads to being repetitive because there isn’t anything else in the game that offers different loot sources.
(well technically you can just walk around and loot, but honestly looking for stones on the beach is more engaging)
Let’s take the Reaper for example, as you know to get it to MAYBE spawn you gotta have a set number of level 4 rivals active in the map. However, even if you have the set amount of rivals, that doesn’t guarantee a reaper spawn. So it becomes a cycle of killing and killing the same thing over and over again, while this is basically games, there’s nothing in the process that makes it fun. At least for me, that is. Once you have killed said Reaper, despite the fact that you perhaps got some EXP guns. The grind isn’t technically over, because the end goal is to hoard ammo and medkits. In general, there’s nothing stimulating during the process. What the game needs is more worldbuilding that properly works in mechanics of the game within the story and lore, the weapon packs are the perfect examples of not doing this. They just exist, no in game lore, no quest, no reason to exist.
Like I said I’m making a big video with way more examples of this, will probably be done over the summer. It will provide more examples and criticism about the whole game.
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I also believe there may be too much loot and not enough sources for that loot to come from, we keep adding fluff to the pool and it will keep getting more and more bloated until it just breaks and ceases to function properly.
Also, the latest updates have not really helped much as the devs keep burning down or just straight up deleting lootable areas such as towns and replacing them with burnt fields that have nothing to loot except a few lore breaking corpses.
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I missed the video when it was first posted, but it echoes what I said over the last year, so that’s a +1 to @sillmacka from me right there. As for the discussion about loot and grind, @Aesyle wrote a thorough analysis, and there’s not much else to say about this from my point of view. I can add that in my game, the loot pool was very generous, as I got quite an amount of experimentals and 5* guns and attachments, so much that I traded them away as they cluttered my inventory.
As far as I can read the room, the direction the devs took isn’t likely to be reversed any time soon, so maybe the one thing they should take away from the whole discussion is that they either should have launched in ‘Early Access’ or alternatively should have clearly stated that the game is on a ‘live service’ model and likely to change noticeably over time. As some others have already said, the player base that preferred the stealthy, difficult approach over the looty-shooty variety seem to have gotten the short end of the stick.
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Aesyle is clarity within this forum.
I don’t know what a video covering what we already know will achieve.
Though, you never know what someone knew will bring to the table. Let’s hope it’s more constructive than the last one.
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This is a really good post, thanks for sharing!
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