Why not nuke Ostertorn?/ Is this Just a Political Battle?

Just finishing up one of the points I made early on in the discussion which prompted the point there would be no story.

I think the issue of trying to remove FNIX is that it’s now virtual. It itself mentions backing it’s own data in FNIX Rising. I think the outside world knows to a military high-ranking type of level. Like it’s not revealed to the public, but projects and operations are being set. It kinda reignites and rekindles that discussion about Yellow Reindeer and the shipments that went out when FNIX was secretly in control before the attacks began.

Mixing between real life and the GZ timeline, there were treaties signed after the nuclear weapons arming for their own defense - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_program
So this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferation_of_Nuclear_Weapons
There are their own conflicts following up to 1989 about the disarmament, which is possibly why Sweden shut down FOA 4, Fredrik Holberg found a new way to build their defenses and the project continued with machines.

We have no more info about what happened next, but three shipments (unknown of container amounts) of machines went to three key locations across Sweden. I can’t remember the names anymore, butt hey were mentioned in a mission on a file that goes about a patrol officer finding himself in his new position to be odd. So he notes things in his diary with the crate shipment codes and where they went (the real locations), but didn’t know much of what hose containers had in them (the machines).

What it means from the outside…

The threat could Have been contained, but who knows how with those 3 shipments. It could be that the ships were stopped before reaching land with the knowledge that machines on board can be hostile after losing contact with Ostervik. It could be that the ships made to port, but quickly were halted and isolated with military forces having to fight the machines that were shipped on each separate location. It leaves so much room for speculation, because one other particular place that got shipped to was an island, which means those military forces can also have a limit for the initial response. By the time any more reinforcements come, FNIX could’ve taken that other island over…

Just interesting to me with how the Guns DLC will play to the story now :thinking:

That jorunal doesn’t mention any locations:

What does name the locations, is this shipment log:

With this, we have, at bare minimum of 3 shipments. How many containers per shipment - that is unknown but i’d estimate 4 (two side-by-side and another two on top of them).

Though, another thing to think about is if the machines in those containers were activated or not. If the containers were placed into storage (like seen all over Östertörn), machines in them could very well be inactive.

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Yeah, my memory only extended as far as that diary being associated with finding that file of shipments. Those three locations showed up on google maps for me, which is why I think there is this Broad possibility that something may have happened outside. Not that it did, because we aren’t getting 100% confirmations ever, but we do know that operations are still formed etc.

So, just as you say, not knowing the sizes and at which point what could have been stopped with shipments, the operations with Yellow Reindeer, if just going by wording… Is deployment on Swedish soil. Whether it’s enemies deploying on Swedish soil or assistance is also a foggy question, but it implies a bit more in scale than just Ostertorn. I just won’t confirm that’s the case entirely, because I think this has been left broad with intention, just so there’s enough open ends for the writers in their Dev team to pick up and tie the game’s lore in favor of the Development itself.

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You might be right about the threat being contained. But It seems to me that FNIX had something going on outside of the island, because there is a location in the South Coast region where two FNIX power lines go into the water and out into the sea in different directions. Which brings to question just what they are connected too. Could FNIX have some sort of base in the ocean, perhaps another secret facility built by the military? In the same location the power lines go into the ocean, FNIX is in the process of building some sort of base or fort, implying that it doesn’t want anyone to mess with the area. This and other factors pointed out by others here suggest that FNIX is most certainly not contained on the island, but maybe is contained within Sweden as far as NATO and the Soviets are aware.

We have yet to see any aquatic machines to say for sure. My guess is that that FOA network is wider than the whole Ostertorn islands. I’m not denying that FNIX could somehow assimilate some civilian and military ships to be as floating platforms for whatever purpose. There’s also could be underwater tidal generators - hell, I’m thinking that FNIX could and actually did go “green” energy to be power-independent, since fuel is limited and any outside power sources could be simply cut off. Well, radioactive materials can hint for nuclear energy option, but that has very specific conditions.

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Don’t forget that in the recent poll, one of the options we could vote for was amphibious machines. So it might yet happen. Also, the idea about tidal generators would make sense, but FNIX had already built several generators on the island, and those power lines I mentioned are connected to a generator on land that you can find if you follow them. But I also like where your going with your ideas.

I noticed the power lines going into the water too and found that very curious. I still think this madman is operating with some Swedish cabal b/c I have not seen one machine go anywhere near water, in fact, they seem to avoid it for the most part. I think that implies that they did not construct or run any underwater structures. So my guess is it goes to the mainland and was done using cable laying ships, hence my assertion of some form of military cabal or private venture who unleashed the robot plague. This may also imply that the mainland is already gone, under total robot control, and this island IS that last holdout. Thoughts?

Possible. But the real question is, how do hunters make more hunters, seekers, runners, harvesters, tanks. How do they breakdown for shipment? Could a bunch of runner band together to make a harvester think like voltron. …?

I think there was not enough water testing with the bots. plus the designs are not salt water friendly. You would need to use marine grade galvanized steel.

Then the question comes to buoyancy and weight and how to not sink into the soft bottom. The sea floor in that area I would think would have a substantial sandy/muddy base think maybe 100 foot of soft base so it would literally eat machines.

All bets are off if they can find a rock ledge base to walk down and up though. And if they found that I would say a big yes to underground facilities.

Regardless the cleanup aspect of dead robots begs the question if there is a human contingent that picks up and recycles things. That group could be working on upgrades and be the reason behind rivals. They also be hand in hand with fnix rising and working on the whole underwater thing.

I think the movie Virus would be a very good reference point. The abyss minus aliens with robots instead would be a good plot point as well. And if you go on the abyss route for a plot point which the ending is multinational, fnix could be undersea self sustaining after completely obliterated above land.

And really if they are undersea there could have been a whole programming thing to study deep sea life and report back.

Or it could go 20,000 leagues under the sea attacking ships some how but then you end up with a whole terminator cross up with the robots and water deal.

You really have a good start to a whole idea and plot point there.

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Whos’ to say they just don’t dig tunnels to the mainland. I’m sure that big drill on harvesters could be fitted to do the prep-work until they had proper full sized drill machines built by FNIX and then set to work.

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Having studied some mine building things. The tunneling would require a highly specialized rig. As you drill you would need to reinforce the walls with ribbing, rock bolts, and then backfill with shotcrete at 7000psi.

Then there is the issue of water removal. With all the water and higher water table drilling of any sort would be very risky. Once you get to solid bed rock and bore down deep enough, yes water issues might be abated but then you have to worry about natural gas, water veins, and other quirks of nature and ore and fault lines in natural bed rock. Many of these issues are ones that machines would not be able to detect well or in advance before issues occurred. Granted machines with rudimentary programming could just pick up and continue after the mess is cleaned up, but…

Now there were rumors that the government created nuclear powered boring drills for tunnels that were used to interconnect western installations. That was in the 80s so a nuclear drill prototype on loan is a possibility. Now that might actually be more of a possibility. Get things so hot that the rock literally becomes a solid face for a ways back not necessitating a traditional tunneling methodology. The kicker is getting down deep enough to where the boring unit is going to be effectively be boring solid rock.

I think there was a cold war movie about china drilling tunnels all over the earth and under the united states.

Still I like your thinking there.

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After the update I saw Hunters jump into the water near Ruskele to get to me on the other side. The water came to their waist. I never had seen that before. I kind of liked that manoeuvre.

So maybe there is a certain point that the machines can’t submerge… So we know that there’s this sunken machine Tank disabled that’s seen from a bridge near Archipelago. The assumption would go that it maybe died of water, but it’s really deep in that water and rain doesn’t affect these machines. They can survive wet environments etc, but aren’t just equipped yet to submerge and imagine what happens to their signals.

They have to have some range or guarantee they can either compute by themselves or bring additional machines designed to cover range or even resources. Maybe that’s why the issue is containable within Ostertorn itself, so the issue is isolated, but the issue/FNIX has gone green and soon will develop ways to expand beyond the water. Just creepy imagining what type of machines they’d send out underwater, where you’re relaxing by a shore somewhere out there and suddenly freaky machines emerge.

I don’t! It means they are a hairs width from going over the edge when they die.

And you don’t like it because you can’t loot them in the water? I liked it because they took the short route. and they didn’t die. I also never minded that a machine could shoot through the walls of the wooden Swedish houses. Nor if they came inside. I expect them to follow us in if they are smart. :sunglasses:

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Rivals in my games would live forever if they all lived and fought next to the water. I’d never kill them for fear of loosing them in the water. Now that would be smart!

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Yeah, if you need to loot Rivals to get weapons, schematics or special apparel it best to let them move away from water.

Yes for sure. Yesterday I destroyed a Level 4 harvester on a riverbank and it took a nose dive when it died right into the bottom of the Öberbyan river. Totally pissed me off b/c my player is an Aquaphobic and cannot swim, I couldn’t even wade deep enough and loot his sorry a$$. :frowning_face:

Game needs a rebreather. We have a gas mask, why not a rebreather and underwater?

OK, revisiting some old research, I came across this nice video presentation and explanation in a 4 minute video of what a full scale nuclear strike would look like. It resulted from the launching of a SINGLE bomb. In this game that single bomb would pretty much trigger things automatically and pretty much screw the whole world.

https://sgs.princeton.edu/the-lab/plan-a

But never fear, nuclear war is not the end. There is plenty of information on how to survive such things here:
http://ki4u.com/

The Kearny fallout meter and the Kearny fallout meter plans are a neeto thing to have/make.

The video and first link are all based on cold war era US-NATO vs Warsaw-USSR forces. Very much within the timeframe of the game.

This stuff is hard to find but the study of nuclear war is an interesting if not disturbing read. Marie Curie and Mister Wilhelm Rontgen are also interesting folks to read up on as well.