Level Caps Are Not Welcome & Here's Why

[DeadWanderer]

OffTopic

@Aesyle

While split-screen may work for consoles (since those usually have two controllers), how this would work on PC? With only 1 KB and mouse? Ask PC players to buy 2nd KB and 2nd mouse to play on split screen?

I have Logitech F710 connected all the time and it is essentially XBox gamepad. GZ recognizes it and I can switch KB/M and gamepad any moment and both work. Even button tips change on the fly on the UI.

@Aesyle

Also, i don’t get how multiple chars ties in with slipt-screen. Are you supposed to control 2 of your chars at once, in split-screen?

That’s the idea - it is done in the “Road Redemption” game, which actively suggests up to 4 characters before the start (activating your character by KB/M or gamepad you posess). Thing is - how to split it on 19’’-21’’ screens Buuuut, PC have luxury of multiple screens, so…

@AtomicUs5000

It would be nice to have the basics pulled out of specialization trees. Maybe you get limited specialization points that stop at a certain level, but all the basics level up slowly with your character. In Generation Zero, some of these basics would be max health, max stamina, heal speed, stamina regen speed, run speed, aim speed, throw accuracy, and lockpicking. Of course, there needs to be a cap to this as well, but this is the part that should take many, many months of gameplay to really develop.

@AtomicUs5000

This doesn’t mean that a specialization cannot add onto these basic skills. For instance, maybe there is some new melee build and it has a perk to reduce stamina 2%, 5%, 10% when using melee weapons. Gain 2hp, 5hp, 10hp for each kill with a melee weapon. Etc. Add in the build specifics. 2%, 5% 10% more damage to enemies with melee weapons. These should probably be in this order going up the tree as well, or in a similar way such that the higher up the tree, the more beneficial for that particular class. Lower in the tree is more beneficial for anybody. Now apply this concept in similar ways to each build type.

Say, did you played PayDay2? Your description close to their skill trees.

@AtomicUs5000

Finally, XP gain increase shouldn’t be in any trees. It has no benefit in a capped system and does more harm to a player than good. However, if the basics were pulled out and leveled slowly with the player, it might make sense to place one of these at the end of every tree. For instance following the melee build as an example again, 1% 2% 3% XP gain for killing an enemy with a melee weapon.

You say “it shouldn’t be in any tree”, then immediately propose to put it 'in the end".

I dunno if devs would like it, but how about skill system or at least certain stats that raise by usage (BL1 proficieny, TES3+ skill system)? I admit that it weawing skill system into skill system, but that how it was in Borderlands 1 - skill tree and weapon proficiencies. I don’t say “we need that”, I’m just throwing into discussion if we want this here.

[Fwerkie]

Yeah, what deadwanderer said. Also, split screen is for multiple people. This is kind of off topic, but it’s the only way to explain what I’m talking about, so bear with me.

Currently, there is not an option for a two player split screen. But, it would be beneficial, because since you already have four characters, you could choose two, and then two people could play in the same world, but on one device. I say this because many times while playing I’ve thought to myself “ man, too bad we don’t have another ps4, me and my dad could play together” obviously the gaming community is much larger than me and my dad, but the logic still stands. Why not add a split screen feature? That way, it would make sense that you can have more than one character, and there would be an actual reason for it. Not to mention that instead of someone having to buy a 3-500$ devise, they can buy a 20-50$ controller, and get to playing, because you can share a console/ PC.

Anyway, that’s my suggestion. Also again as DeadWanderer said, split screen is possible on PC, and if you have two screens, it’s not that hard at all.

@Aesyle

Also, i don’t get how multiple chars ties in with slipt-screen. Are you supposed to control 2 of your chars at once, in split-screen?

Sorry if that was confusing, I meant that two people would play at once on the same device.

[AtomicUs5000]

@DeadWanderer

Say, did you played PayDay2? Your description close to their skill trees.

No, I haven’t even seen gameplay of it yet. That’s interesting. I’ll check it out.

@DeadWanderer

You say “it shouldn’t be in any tree”, then immediately propose to put it 'in the end".

Yes, provided that there would still be a reason to get XP, which there might be under the condition that those basic skills were pulled out and leveled slowly and for much longer. I knew someone would point that out, but I didn’t want to say the same thing over again in a lengthy post. If the system remains as is, then there shouldn’t be XP gain as a skill under any tree. It serves no purpose in the current system and does nothing but waste at least one point for anybody going with that build.

But anyway, the underlying point I was trying to make is that a capped system with class trees should work and would probably even be desired by most players if the basics that every player needs were separated out of it somehow. The class perks might augment those basics when using specific weapons and equipment, but you wouldn’t feel like you were missing out on essentials if you didn’t take them.

Here’s another example. Carry Capacity is something that every player would want to improve regardless of how they play. If it were pulled out as a basic skill, this would improve slowly with my character level. On top of that as a bonus, I can also improve it with my class perks. Going back to my pretend melee build, it could have a perk like melee weapons weigh 5%, 15%, 25% less. For a Medic, all medical equipment weigh less… and so on. The way it is now, I must absolutely invest into a survivor class if I want any carry capacity improvement at all. This is not the kind of player choice I believe the devs really want.

[DeadWanderer]

So you want divide skills to level-based stat raise and SP system?
Well, I’m not against it. But game’s skill system is fine as it is. It just need clean up and tweaks.
And it isn’t something very complicated for now, but I’d like to be GZ being as sophisticated as Chris Avellonne’s FallOut games (1, 2, NV) in terms of storytelling or quests. But GZ has it’s own charm of being pure open-world guerilla action against machines in not too distant alternative to 80s-90s and I don’t really want another FallOut game after it’s name was so much tainted. And being pure open-word guerilla action game against machines in not too distant alternative 80s-90s doesn’t require too sophisticated RPG elements as quite a lot of suggested skills/systems. Especially “too supernatural” like heal-on-kill.

[AtomicUs5000]

Traditionally, Fallout’s skill system was picking them before you even start.

@DeadWanderer

Especially “too supernatural” like heal-on-kill

I may have provided something like that as a simple example, but can easily be replaced with something like an increased chance of an enemy dropping a med-kit when killing it with the weapon(s) of that class. Enemies having med-kits is pretty weird too, I suppose… but that already exists so I can be spared the criticism on that one.

[Aesyle]

Off-topic

@AtomicUs5000

Enemies having med-kits is pretty weird too, I suppose… but that already exists so I can be spared the criticism on that one.

Some background info:

When GZ launched, only FNIX tank had advanced first aid kit in it’s loot pool and that too rarely. No other machine had first aid kits in their loot pool. But then came player complaints and in June '19 update, devs brought Machine Loot, which messed up the game pretty good. Btw, i don’t like that Machine Loot at all but i have to accept it, if i want to play GZ.

---

@AtomicUs5000

Yes, provided that there would still be a reason to get XP, which there might be under the condition that those basic skills were pulled out and leveled slowly and for much longer.

This reminds me skill system in GTA games, where the more you practice certain activity (e.g riding a bike), the better you get at it. While it makes sense, it’s slow going and if one would like to max out all skills (for 100% completion), it’s tedious thing to do. Especially when the activity in question doesn’t appeal at all.

@AtomicUs5000

Going back to my pretend melee build, it could have a perk like melee weapons weigh 5%, 15%, 25% less. For a Medic, all medical equipment weigh less… and so on.

I can understand that when you play, your carry capacity slowly increases over time but for items to magically start loosing weight, is something i’m not okay with.

It would make more sense, in the Medic example, where the higher your medicinal skill is, the more HP you can recover in each consumption.
E.g: simple first aid kit currently heals 25 HP. If you’d have medicinal skill half-way, you could get 27 HP out of it and if it’s maxed, you could get 30 HP out of it.

[AtomicUs5000]

@Aesyle

This reminds me skill system in GTA games, where the more you practice certain activity (e.g riding a bike), the better you get at it. While it makes sense, it’s slow going and if one would like to max out all skills (for 100% completion), it’s tedious thing to do. Especially when the activity in question doesn’t appeal at all.

That would be “learn by doing.” Slightly different because under that system you would have to do silly things like jump a lot in order to raise jumping skill, or run in circles to raise running skill. In my example, a foundation of all of the basic attributes builds up as you play. The only tedium is whatever already exists in the game because you play as normal. If you really wanted to, there could be separate points. Survival points and class points. That would give you some more added freedom to do something like focus on health initially. All that really matters is that the basic survival character enhancements are separate from class, but then enhanced further when you actually play as that class.

@Aesyle

I can understand that when you play, your carry capacity slowly increases over time but for items to magically start loosing weight, is something i’m not okay with.

It would make more sense, in the Medic example, where the higher your medicinal skill is, the more HP you can recover in each consumption.
E.g: simple first aid kit currently heals 25 HP. If you’d have medicinal skill half-way, you could get 27 HP out of it and if it’s maxed, you could get 30 HP out of it.

Sure, but again my example is being taken too literally. The idea is to provide a way for players to build up the things that everybody uses regardless of your character type, but then you can augment or enhance with class-specific perks. My example could easily be replaced with as a melee build, you obtain special holsters to be able to carry melee weapons easier. It could easily be defined as class-specific backpacks that can hold the class items more efficiently because they were designed for that purpose. The details and semantics of it all doesn’t matter in my proposal.

Everybody wants to run faster. So, let everybody level up their character to run faster over time. Now, let players boost that with their class selections in some way. I’m sure this can be picked apart and taken literally as well… but again just as an example, a Marksman with the perks could run faster while holding rifles. Not a supernatural event, it’s just that the marksman is more comfortable running while holding the weapons a marksman would normally hold. For the imaginary melee class I’ve used before, faster while holding melee weapons. This allows players to really specialize in the classes they choose. No matter what route you go, you don’t have to feel like you missed out on the running speed perk due to the skill points cap. You get some from general leveling, and you get some more provided that you are truly playing the classes you choose. Person A being marksman and Person B being a melee grunt can be on level playing grounds as long as they stick to their class.

[Aesyle]

@AtomicUs5000

The idea is to provide a way for players to build up the things that everybody uses regardless of your character type, but then you can augment or enhance with class-specific perks.

I get what your idea is but i think it’s too complex for GZ. Currently, it’s easy and straightforward: gain XP, level up, get skill point, use skill point to unlock one skill. Separating skills to base skills and class specific skills and also changing their improvement, over-complicates things.

@AtomicUs5000

Person A being marksman and Person B being a melee grunt can be on level playing grounds as long as they stick to their class.

This, “stick to the class”, is something i, personally, am not okay with.

Some time ago, Systemic Reaction released 2nd game: Second Extinction and at 1st, i thought i might give it a go. Since it looked similar to GZ, except it has dinos instead of machines. But once i saw that it has predefined char classes in it, i instantly gave it a hard pass.

I don’t like when i’m forced to pick specific player class in a game. I like when i can freely pick the skills i like and be “Jack of all Trades”, which i can in GZ. And while skills in GZ are defined into 4 categories, you are not bound to stick with one category. You can freely pick skills from all 4 categories and make a char that is unique to you.

[AtomicUs5000]

@Aesyle

I don’t like when i’m forced to pick specific player class in a game. I like when i can freely pick the skills i like and be “Jack of all Trades”, which i can in GZ. And while skills in GZ are defined into 4 categories, you are not bound to stick with one category. You can freely pick skills from all 4 categories and make a char that is unique to you.

Nothing forces you stick to the class though. Sticking to your class I mean for maximizing the benefit of your perks. It doesn’t mean that you can’t step outside of it. In the current system you are absolutely forced to go down the survivor class for example, if you want to run faster. That is not freedom at all. You are forced to start the survivor tree if you want to improve your hp even just a little. Nothing allows a true jack of all trades in these skills… and like I said before, it’s all because those basic survival skills that every class should have available are not. This is why people hate the cap. They want to improve health, stamina, carry capacity, all those basics that everyone wants, but still be able to take advantage of the perks and the special ability for their character type.

If you were to truly try a jack of all trades build, it would be garbage. You would have what? the first couple perks of each tree? How does that compare to the classic vanguard plus some survivor build that I’m pretty sure the majority of players end up with?

[DeadWanderer]

@AtomicUs5000

Sticking to your class I mean for maximizing the benefit of your perks.

Uh… “Specialization” type skill anyone?

@AtomicUs5000

If you were to truly try a jack of all trades build, it would be garbage. You would have what? the first couple perks of each tree? How does that compare to the classic vanguard plus some survivor build that I’m pretty sure the majority of players end up with?

I admit that I ended up to classic Vanguard. Because I more single-player player and it does make me JoaT. Why? Mostly because other builds ain’t that practical and my playstyle in general (not only GZ) is about overpowering through upfront skirmishes, but that isn’t solid. Hence Vanguard, health and to fuel inner pack rat - carry capacity. Other skills are either of no use to me, due to being solo most of the time (flanking, marking, revival speed, Last Man, Commander) or I learned how use stuff/behave without other skills, since they are not that rewarding or build deemed too impractical to bother (marksman, salvage and bino skills right off the bat). Oh, and I’d really like to skip some mandatory +dmg skills for Vanguard.

I’ll repeat myself again: we need to tweak and shuffle a bit current skills and branches, unhook from “rigid 8 branches” to about “a bit more flexible 4 branches” since half skills aren’t worth to even bother (not rewarding or can be compensated with player’s finese) to pick in the first place or worth to own, but must dump precious SP into trash/redundant/unwanted skills (that means you, Tech). No need to reinvent bicycle from scratch.
Game moved too far from what current skill tree offers.

Those “mandatory” survival skills actually do their part in balancing builds. I’d say there’s no “compensation” for not picking them.
Let’s look at Deus Ex (the first one, 2000 release date). There’s up to four “layers” of means to progress: skills, augments, inventory and environment (collective term for pathes taken, dialogue choices, money spent). This system is very complicated, but arrange for you a wide variety of choices how to progress. Lacking in skills and augmentation - get critical item and prepare some bribes. For example - no lockpicks and corresponding skills for certain door? Ask for password. Or buy password. Or circumvent the door. Or just f’ng blast the door. There’s always “compensation” or way to circumvent.
It’s not always as described, but thought should get across - system is not balanced, but organized and have counterweights.

In current GZ it’s simplicity isn’t properly organized and doesn’t have “balance” across the board. It’s “center of mass” or most stable point ended up around these “mandatory survival skills” and Vanguard being meta-build. It’s may not be trivial matter for balancing game’s system with currently implemented skills and items, but at least I don’t see it as unsolvable equation.
Again, game doesn’t offer much to “compensate” for not to pick most meta skills.

[Aesyle]

@AtomicUs5000

If you were to truly try a jack of all trades build, it would be garbage. You would have what?

Then i’d have this:

No Vanguard, no extra HP or even Stamina amount, no Steady Feet. But loads of Tech skills (with many useless skills as said by many), Enemy Marking (said by some to be useless in solo play) and Marksman. I’d say that she is Jack of all Trades, having skills from all 4 main categories.

She is my 1st char. And while i have 3 other max lvl chars, she is always the one, to whom i prefer when playing GZ.

@AtomicUs5000

In the current system you are absolutely forced to go down the survivor class for example, if you want to run faster.

Well, isn’t faster Running Speed literally one of the survival elements? Since i don’t see how it could be considered part of the Combat, Support or Tech.

@AtomicUs5000

like I said before, it’s all because those basic survival skills that every class should have available are not.

There are no predefined classes in GZ. What there are, are skill groupings: these skills are combat oriented, these skills are tech oriented etc.

Besides having basic survival skills (run speed, carry capacity, health amount), there are also basic tech skills (e.g lockpicking), basic support skills (e.g flanking) and basic combat skills (e.g aim speed). Which by your account, should all be considered as Basic skills, and available for all “classes”.

I’m pretty sure that many players end up picking lockpicking skill as well. And players who prefer playing GZ in MP, flanking skill is the 1st one to pick due to it’s ability.

So, is it really any better if 1/3 of all skills are taken out from their current groupings and classified as Basic skills?

@DeadWanderer

Let’s look at Deus Ex (the first one, 2000 release date).

Great game. One of the best, if not The Best, game ever made.

@AtomicUs5000

This is why people hate the cap.

Speaking of Deus Ex:
There are 11 skills in Deus Ex, which you can further upgrade 3 times. All skills (except Pistol), start out as Untrained. You then can improve them to Trained, Advanced and Master, to max it out.

Thing is, it takes 86.925 skill points to upgrade all skills to Master but in the entire game, there are only 34.275 skill points available. And not all skills require same amount of skill points to upgrade.
E.g to Master the Environment Training, you’ll need 4.275 skill points but to Master the Lockpicking skill, you’ll need 11.600 skill points.

This above system is great and it’s similar to GZ, where you have to plan ahead and decide which skills you want to improve. There was no mentality of: “remove the cap and get all skills at max level”, like we currently have here in this topic.

On top of the skills, you also have Augmentations in Deus Ex. Each time your get Augmentation Cannister, you had to choose between 2 augmentations. There were no take backs or skill respecs. If you picked e.g Run Silent over Jump Higher, you were stuck with it up to the end of the game. Of course, you could also upgrade each of your augmentations, if you got the rare Augmentation Upgrade Cannister. But once you upgraded it, you were stuck with it.

Like said by DeadWanderer above, there were many different ways to solve a situation. E.g if your Lockpicking skill wasn’t high enough to pick a lock with the lockpicks you had, you could: go find a key, buy more lockpicks, find more lockpicks, buy a key, destroy the door or find another way past the door.

In that sense, there are similarities in GZ as well. There are no required skills in GZ, that you absolutely must have, to finish all missions in GZ. Skills make your life easier but there are other ways to make your life easier. E.g lower in-game difficulty, use Field Radios more, don’t shoot everything on sight etc.

[DeadWanderer]

@Aesyle

In that sense, there are similarities in GZ as well. There are no required skills in GZ, that you absolutely must have, to finish all missions in GZ. Skills make your life easier but there are other ways to make your life easier. E.g lower in-game difficulty, use Field Radios more, don’t shoot everything on sight etc.

This has better wording than I did and I agree on that. I’d like to ephasis that I didn’t mean that GZ been lacking ways to circumvent, but the ways to circumvent are too disbalanced, so there’s a noticeable bias in people’s choices.

[Fwerkie]

It would at least be nice if we were notified at some point along the way that there is a level cap so we don’t waste points on, you guessed it - the tick specialization.

But anyway, beyond that, why use precious skill points, to simply run faster? Or be able to run slightly longer? Obviously the specializations…or, some of them that is…should be bought with skill points, because they do things that are slightly unrealistic, such as eliminating weapon sway entirely.

Realistically, stamina would increase simply because you are moving more. So, it makes sense that you wouldn’t have to upgrade it.

[Aesyle]

@Fwerkie

It would at least be nice if we were notified at some point along the way that there is a level cap so we don’t waste points

I agree. Though, i found out about level cap before starting to play GZ (watched some gameplay vids beforehand).

@Fwerkie

But anyway, beyond that, why use precious skill points, to simply run faster? Or be able to run slightly longer? Obviously the specializations…or, some of them that is…should be bought with skill points, because they do things that are slightly unrealistic, such as eliminating weapon sway entirely.

Realistically, stamina would increase simply because you are moving more. So, it makes sense that you wouldn’t have to upgrade it.

When taken realistically, many skills would be increasing over time, the more you do that activity. This kind of skill progression is in use e.g in GTA series. Though, this skill progression system takes far longer, to max skills out, than the current skill point system. And that could be another source of complaints.

Also, i don’t think devs would make drastic changes to the game, to implement completely different skill system. But you’ll never know. We already got a huge change in inventory system.

[AtomicUs5000]

@Aesyle

No Vanguard, no extra HP or even Stamina amount, no Steady Feet. But loads of Tech skills (with many useless skills as said by many), Enemy Marking (said by some to be useless in solo play) and Marksman. I’d say that she is Jack of all Trades, having skills from all 4 main categories.

She is my 1st char. And while i have 3 other max lvl chars, she is always the one, to whom i prefer when playing GZ.

No, that is my first character. It might have something small different, but it is basically my first character. I think that says something. The freedom we have with the skill system is an illusion. I only have one other character, which is mainly Combat. Of course, the Survivor tree looks the same. If you were to somehow compile all the player characters of Generation Zero into a set, then remove any that haven’t had much play time, I bet you would end up with 4 general characters, with the Vanguard build being the most seen. They might vary by a point here and there, but they are basically the same. The lack of true classes is an illusion because what is accomplished here is not much different than just giving us 4 characters to choose from.

[DeadWanderer]

@AtomicUs5000

If you were to somehow compile all the player characters of Generation Zero into a set, then remove any that haven’t had much play time, I bet you would end up with 4 general characters, with the Vanguard build being the most seen. They might vary by a point here and there, but they are basically the same. The lack of true classes is an illusion because what is accomplished here is not much different than just giving us 4 characters to choose from.

And that what I meant by “no compensation for not to pick said skills”.

[Fwerkie]

@Aesyle

Though, this skill progression system takes far longer, to max skills out, than the current skill point system. And that could be another source of complaints.

Also, i don’t think devs would make drastic changes to the game, to implement completely different skill system. But you’ll never know. We already got a huge change in inventory system.

It’s true that it might be frustrating to some people to just have to wait for your stamina, running speed, and whatever else would be a gradual upgrade, to monotonously improve. But I think they wouldn’t mind as much if that made it so that they didn’t have to waste skill points on those types of improvements.

The devs also are about to make a drastic change to the game, coming ( I believe) on April 27. So, your not wrong, they might surprise us.

[Aesyle]

@AtomicUs5000

No, that is my first character.

Am i sensing, that you don’t think i’m credible and perhaps i took that image from the net and i’m claiming it to be mine?
If so, then in this bug report topic, there is gameplay video, which i recorded and which proves that i do have that char, who’s screenshot i posted: Sprinting Distance since June Update - #2 by Aesyle

@AtomicUs5000

It might have something small different, but it is basically my first character. I think that says something.

Your picked skills may be similar and there’s a slim chance that they are exactly the ones as my 1st char has them.

As far as that telling something goes, well, to me, it tells that there are players out there, other than me, who at 1st playthrough, don’t consider the 25% damage reduction (Vanguard specialization) critical to be picked.

@AtomicUs5000

If you were to somehow compile all the player characters of Generation Zero into a set, then remove any that haven’t had much play time, I bet you would end up with 4 general characters, with the Vanguard build being the most seen. They might vary by a point here and there, but they are basically the same.

Only devs can tell what kind of skill sets are the most popular ones since they have the telemetry data. We, players, can only guess.
And my guess, out of all players who have 4 chars, have only one Vanguard specialized char, making the Vanguard build 25% of all builds.

@AtomicUs5000

The lack of true classes is an illusion because what is accomplished here is not much different than just giving us 4 characters to choose from.

There is a huge difference between:

• customizing your own char, with free skill picks between 4 skill categories
• forced to use pre-defined char, who’s core skills (or any skills in that matter), you can’t change

@Fwerkie

But I think they wouldn’t mind as much if that made it so that they didn’t have to waste skill points on those types of improvements.

The issue with gradual progression is always the amount of time it takes to advance or max out the skill. For some, it may take way too long of a time than they expected; for others, it finishes too quickly and there are also those who feel it being just right.

Here, i think that people mind more about spending loads of time to advance a skill slowly, rather than gaining a level from XP and then unlocking a skill at an instant.

Another issue with this is that it’s hard to tell if the skill even improves. Since the improvement is so slow, most people can’t tell a difference, even when you have a counter showing the progression.

[Fwerkie]

Well, that is definitely true. But, because GZ is kind of a “ grind game” where people tend to play a lot of it, for different reasons, some of which have to do with the fact that people are frequently looking for weapons, achievements, and so on…it would even out. Essentially what I’m saying is, yes it would take a while, but it might not take as long as you think because for instance, players are always running, so stamina would increase rather quickly. And because reloading is a necessity, reload speed would increase rather quickly as well.

Also, we’re assuming that the devs would make it that it takes forever to Improve your skills, but they might make it not take quite as long as we’re thinking.

[Aesyle]

@Fwerkie

Also, we’re assuming that the devs would make it that it takes forever to Improve your skills, but they might make it not take quite as long as we’re thinking.

Yes, we are assuming the probable length of time it would take to max out progressive skill. But when to look how long it takes to, e.g:

• collect every 5* weapon, including U.S weapons
• collect every 6* weapon
• collect every apparel schematic

Then i’d say that progressive skills would also take forever and more, to max out.

@Fwerkie

players are always running, so stamina would increase rather quickly

In mid- to late-game, once players have unlocked sufficient amount of safehouses, players opt to Fast Travel a lot more than run everywhere. That convenient zapping around reduces the gain of stamina related skills considerably.
And using the bike would also have reduced gain in stamina related skills since sitting on a bike and pedaling is less severe of an exercise than running or sprinting.