Level Caps Are Not Welcome & Here's Why

Feedback/Feature Requests
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Having a level cap is not welcome for this type of game.
The game is an huge open world exploration game that can be played both Solo & Co-Op.
It’s not a tactical RPG with classes & forced Co-Op or forced PvP…it doesn’t need the level cap. All the level cap does is for the most part hurt Solo Players alot.

The level cap makes a little sense for Co-Op…but that’s with planned groups of friends that set themselves up to be certain specialties & plan over a long period of time since you can’t respec your character. Random Co-Op & Solo doesn’t benefit from it at all & as you already know the game is by default set to “Open For Anyone To Join” every time that you load up the game. Even if you could respec…it still hurts the overall game for anyone that is NOT in a group of friends all of the time when they play the game. Which again…hurts Solo Players.

The level cap needs to be removed all together.
I’m not gonna make a few different characters & re-level each one up to max just to keep swapping between them just cuz someone thinks that we shouldn’t be able to unlock everything. That’s extremely stupid. I should just be able to play with my ONE character. If I wanna start a new game…then I’ll switch to another character. (Which the “New Game” issue is a whole other topic so I’m not gonna talk about that here since this is all about Level Caps.)

We should be able to go into the game & have all of the skills available to us as we unlock them over time through leveling up. Not having a level cap also means more rewards over a much longer period of time. Once we hit the small level cap…what’s the point of getting anymore exp when we can’t unlock everything else & just sit there looking at so much wasted potential cuz we’re stuck with just a few things outta many in the skills section.

Another reason we DON’T need a level cap is that the skills are already in trees, meaning that right now you need to waste points just to get what you want that is further down the trees when your limited with the points. The fact that the skills are in trees are good enough for being a little careful where you put your points while leveling up. Cuz you won’t get the things you want / need right off the bat…but you WILL get them over time with lots of playtime & exploration (completing quests) & killing tons of robots.

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I’m a solo player for the most part and I personally think this system works better than unrestricted leveling. It adds a sense of strategy to how you build each character, in what order you choose skills, and when to stop building a tree. This may change if/when they switch the character/world system around to allow for multiple world instances but I speculate the level cap will at most be slightly increased, if at all.

I understand the desire to have everything unlocked to be adaptable to any given situation, especially as a solo player, but that would disregard balancing completely. I don’t feel an infinite level cap is the answer. It would also defeat any purpose of having multiple characters that inhabit the same world w/ the same mission set. Mine as well only be able to make one character at that point.

Part of the survival aspect is the necessity to consider how you spend your points wisely. It’s similar to RPG mechanics, where if you want a tank you build a tank, if you want a healer you build a healer. Being able to unlock everything would be way too OP.

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How much can I stress to you & everyone else that you shouldn’t need multiple characters to play one game especially “Generation Zero”. (More on that later down the post.)
That is stupid & there is nothing that can justify that for “Generation Zero” due to how the game has been made & that you can play solo in a huge open world game. The need for a level cap does not fit with this game like you claim.

I think that you misunderstand what I meant about removing the level cap.
I never said that the levels should go on way past the required skills like in “GTA: Online” where players can go up to 9999 which was ridiculous. In that game you finish all of the need for unlocking stuff at level 120…which is where the leveling should have ended at level 120.

Now I can’t remember how many points where needed total for all of the skills in “Generation Zero”…I think it was around 80-90 something.
I’m saying that if we need say 100 points for everything…then we should go to level 100.
Do you understand what I’m saying with that?

Anyways…we are not playing something like “Payday 2” where you need to have character specialties due to that game being a Tactical Co-Op Heist Simulator where you know going in that you MUST plan with friends & others to go into each heist as this trait or that trait.

We are not playing a PvP game either where you need classes.
We are playing like I said before a “huge open world exploration game that can be played Solo.”

With you being a solo player & wanting a level cap for this game says that you want to play multiple characters…not everyone wants to do that. Not everyone has all of the time in the world to do that. Again…people should NOT have to make multiple characters just cuz you think that there should be a restriction on the skills for a game that does NOT need it.

You say

You speak of balancing…yet there is no reason for balancing in this game. You seem to think that we are playing something like what I mentioned above “Payday 2” or a multiplayer game…but we are not playing neither.

It’s an open world game.
Let me give you a few examples of why your wrong with the need for class like gameplay.

#1. We are NOT playing a game survival game like “7 Days To Die” that has hunger, thirst, & other things that have you focus on certain skills. We are not playing a game that has a “Healer”, “Tank”, “Mage”, etc like “League Of Legends” or “Elder Scrolls Online”. Having all of the skills is NOT gonna make you OP like you said. Sorry but that is a dumb statement for a game like this. This OP mentality you speak of is for PvP, full tactical games like “Payday 2” & online only based games. Which is not what this game is at all.

#2. If you are exploring the Huge Open World game & you have only certain skills & yet you come across a spot that needs other skills…then you have to log out & then re-log into another character & then re-travel back to the spot where your original character was only to find that now you don’t need your second character anymore for that spot…but say if you did need your second character…then your first character is now sitting in limbo just cuz you had to switch to another character for something. Where is the fun in that? (That’s a rhetorical question.)

#3. Lets say you could respec your character while in the game…where is the fun in constantly respec-ing your character every 20 minutes while roaming the world just to continue playing the game. Even if they had it where you had to go somewhere to do it…it defeats the purpose of exploring the HUGE open world game cuz you have to keep going back to respec just to do this or that. It also just doesn’t fit & doesn’t make sense in the world that the devs have built. It’s like how the devs will not be adding cars…it’s cuz they don’t fit in this type of game…sure Bicycles would work…due to how the game is built & set up. But that’s another topic & I’m not gonna speak anymore on that.

Respec-ing is for games that you can set up yourself at lobby screens like “Payday 2” or PvP titles. NOT an open world game like this.

Note: There is no anger or anything in this message. So if it comes off that way…then I am very sorry. I’m trying to explain the best way that I can with examples & facts to make you & others understand why restricting skills / having a level cap to stop you from getting all of the skills in this game is completely stupid & not welcome in “THIS” game. It can be fine in other games. If people want to have skills locked off then go play a game like I mentioned. But this game does not benefit from it. I know that I’m not the only person that is saying this. I’ve seen people talk about this in other sites & even a few mentions on this site as well but they didn’t state their cases unlike whereas I have stated the case. There is more to say about this & even better examples…but I’ve already made this post long enough. Sorry about that. LOL. So I’ll end my post here & you + anyone that sees this can just think about what has been said before saying needing something in a game that said game doesn’t need.

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I completely understood what you were saying. If the level cap goes until you can have all the skills unlocked than it doesn’t matter if there is some arbitrary cap or if is infinite, which is why I used the term “unrestricted”. It is a huge open world exploration game that can be played solo. It’s not entirely meant to, so don’t mistake the necessity of balance for some limiting the dev’s forced players into on a whim.

Generation Zero is designed to be planned as a co-op campaign. It is completely doable solo, but it is hard. It’s designed that way. Having two separate modes, one single- and one multi-player could be a potential solution with different mechanics and balancing per each, but to say a game such as this needs no balancing is crazy. Every game needs balancing.

Don’t forget that you are playing a game designed with multiplayer in mind first and foremost. This means it’s going to be difficult playing solo, and with world persistence designed the way it is I don’t really feel what you are proposing makes sense in the design of the game.

I never claimed any objectivity to my opinions on why I think this system works better than an unrestricted leveling/skill cap. If it were a single-player game, sure I would be right with you. It’s not though. I understand you have very strong feelings, and you don’t come off as angry, but you do come off as acting like you’re the only one who knows the “right” way to design this game. This forum space is supposed to be for discussions, opinions, and suggestions not for claiming that one knows how the game should be designed over everybody else. It’s a little bit like entitlement, and does come off a little rude, though I know from experience that it’s mostly passion.

Perhaps bringing this to the community in the form of a question/suggestion rather than telling how it should be might be a better approach next time? Also not angry :stuck_out_tongue: I would just like to see this game be balanced and worked out for the best interests of all of us :slight_smile:

If you ever want a partner to play hit me up :slight_smile:

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So that we can end this conversation on a peaceful note…by having a common agreement…

I think that we can both agree (like you said in your last comment) that the best solution for everyone could be if the Devs could just separate the game between giving a Single Player Mode (where you can unlock all of the skills) & a Co-Op Mode (where it keeps the need for skill restrictions). That way…it will cater to both sides & make everyone happy & not force Co-Op on Solo if someone wants to play Solo. On a side note…that will allow the Single Player side of the game be allowed to be able to pause the game. (Cuz at the moment…there is no pausing when hitting the options button. But that is another topic.)

So by splitting it up into 2 modes it should hopefully be a win-win for everyone. Do you agree?

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I must say that I’m loving this entire thread. I had this particular argument in my head when I found out the lvl cap was 30.

‘To level cap, or not to level cap, that is the question.’ - Hamlet

So… The skill tree:

The skill tree is a mess. Combat requires 12/12 points, Support 11/11 points, Survival 9/12, and Tech 11/9. All for a grand total of 87. Good grief. So straight away there’s no balance there.

Even worse, some of these skills are next to essential for all solo players: Carry Capacity, Spotting Intel and Lockpicking.

Back to your original statement though:

Amusingly, if the devs had included classes/archetypes at character creation we’d probably be having a ‘no classes’ discussion instead.

However, the devs included soft classes in the form of Specialisations, some of which are quite good. Except Survivor and Commando… and Commander. What’s the point of Survivor when I’m carrying around Adrenaline? What’s the point of a mere 15% bonus to damage when the moment I fire, that entire column of troops is going to turn to search mode. What’s the point of a Field Radio that works twice as many times when I could just… You know… Carry a second Field Radio.

Furthermore, some of these skills have nothing to do with their ultimate Specialisations. Which again suggests they be in a non-‘class’ pool or in a ‘class’ of their own. Some, like throwing, are at the start of their respective trees, but others, like Inquisitive Mind or Component Damage are not.

So, even more points need to be spent on skills you don’t want, in order to get skills that you need, from trees they shouldn’t be in; which means you actually need said skill points. Which brings us back around to the level cap.

In the end, I pushed the level cap conundrum to one side of my mind. At the time, pretty much the entire playersbase seemed to be talking about crafting, which would break pretty much everything: the skill tree, the clothing system, the current weaponise-able item combinations, and the rest of the game world. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

But my final thoughts were similar to @NaturalGamer18:

But with three possibilities:

  1. Selecting a single player character at creation that would permanently lock your character from co-op play.

  2. A much higher, but still-capped skill point pool, in which opening new trees would cost an increasing amount of points.

  3. Skill point requirements multiplying every time a set number of levels is passed, probably tied to the amount of points it takes to complete a tree. For instance, assuming a balanced tree of 24 points, every 24 levels, the point requirements for a skill would go up by one (lvl 1-24: 1 point per skill, lvl 25-48: 2 points per skill, lvl 49-72: 3 points per skill, etc). With the current 87 skills, it would take 204 levels to learn them all for instance.

If the skill tree was fleshed out and fixed up, I think in order of preference, my solutions would be 2, 3, 1.

That’s because I have to go with @metafish on strategic use of classes. I like my Engineer with his Ticks. :smiley:

Of course, if the skill tree remains in its current state, I see no other choice but option 3.

Before I sign off, let me just bring up respec. I’m a firm believer, but here you address a valid worry:

While I have no problem with respec costing nothing whilst the devs continue to tinker, once the skill trees are finalised, there needs to be a penalty for respec. The easiest? Lose a level. Not much of a penalty if you’re level 5. A bit more annoying if you’re level 30.

Especially once Persistence is fixed and people can’t just keep one-hit killing respawned Tanks and Harvesters for hours on end.

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Yeah, most skills need to be fixed, reworked and/or buffed. I think you should be able to feel a little difference as soon as you pick a new skill, for example a skill that makes it so that the first shot in a fight always destroy the module you’re aiming at, or one that lets you shut down a machine if you get into melee distance etc.

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We can agree that for sure :slight_smile: I think two separate modes, one for single- and one for multi-, would be the way to go. If that were the case, the single-player mode could have adjustable variables that could change the game mechanics to customize the experience. Kind of like accessibility options in a sense.

Could be similar to what Deep Silver did with the most recent update for Metro: Exodus. When playing a new game+ you can choose all these different variables to start that change weapons you have, how your inventory works, varying enemy difficulties & mechanics, different weather and day-cycle setting (you can set it to a full 24-hour day cycle), crafting settings, etc. Basically, just being able to design a single-player world that is tailored for the enjoyment of the individual while the co-op mode could be the raw experience unhindered, and instead of being a new game+ it could just be a single player mode.

I agree with you @Vasdema on your suggestions, especially #1 and #2. I think 1 should be a given for the separation of the modes, and 2 fits in perfectly. I feel they would both be well to act together.

I like the idea you have to about respecing costing a level-downgrade. That means it would technically be free, as in you could do it freely as many times as you want, but progressively losing skill-points the more you tinker. It would be subtle but effective as a deterrent for abuse.

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Hey Metafish what people are saying in a few short words is , if you want full inventory space you HAVE to put 4 points to that before you can choose say hacker or vanguard , inventory space should be for all classes , cheers

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Yes, I understand this :slight_smile: This is what we are discussing, re-balancing the skill tree for single/multi-player potentialities. The way it’s set up now you aren’t limited to only choosing one class or another, you have free reign to place skill points in any tree you want. I don’t understand what you mean by inventory space should be for all classes since the skill tree setup is only locked by how many levels there are, not necessarily by what specialization you go for. That means it already is available no matter what class you want to fully spec out in.

It’s just about strategically placing the points. That’s not to say I think the system as it stands is perfect. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Maybe @TherotcoD was responding to another post by mistake? I did mention Carry Capacity, Lockpicking and Spotting Intel in passing, but… I don’t know, this comment just seemed a bit of a non-sequitur considering it was supposed to be a direct reply to your post.

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Its true well spotted wrong place , using ps4 to type :blush:

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No problem, matey. :slight_smile:

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Cheers mate, and good eye @Vasdema

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This question & stats goes out to everyone! Even tho some may think that this could lead into a different topic…but it’s still on topic. This is purely a question & facts to get everyone to think about what they’re saying in this topic & others that come to this topic to read everything that has been said. Lets start with the question…

My question is how does having all of the skills make the player Overpowered (OP) in this game?

Everyone keeps insisting that we “must” have to choose our skills & be locked outta others instead of just being able to unlock them all over time through leveling. As I’ve stated many times already about this being an open world game that is NOT a PvP game…how would having all of the skills be bad? There are TONS of other Open World games out there from both past & present were you can unlock all of the skills & it’s not breaking the game & the skills in those games have way more of an affect on the player & game than the skills in “Generation Zero”. Yet for some odd reason…all you you want to keep a dumb system that doesn’t work in this game just cuz the devs put a crappy locking system in place. Just because a dev put something in a game does not make it ok. As you can already tell…the way how the skill trees are set up with how many points we get does NOT go with the level capping system.

Small examples to back this up…
Under the “Tech Tree” there is a skill called
“Inquisitive Mind” (Level 1: +50% XP earned) & (Level 2: +100% XP earned)
Under the “Support Tree” there is a skill called
“Veteran Guerrilla” (Level 1: +20% base XP) & (Level 2: +40 XP earned)

That right there is a waste of the few points that your allowed to have whereas if you were able to get all of the skills…then those 2 skills (4 points would make total sense)

Back to the OP part…how does having skills such as…

“Healer”, “Inquisitive Mind”, “Veteran Guerrilla”, “Aim Speed”, “Throw Distance”, “Throw Accuracy”, “Carry Capacity”, “Down But Not Out”, “Spotting Intel”, “Lockpicking” & “Enemy Marking”.

…make you Overpowered???

Then if we’re just looking at the percentages…how does these skills with those percentages make you overpowered???

“Mechanic” (Level 2: “May” scavenge up to 50% damaged components),
“Chemist” (Increases your base gas resistance by 10%),
“Covert Movement Speed” (Level 2: 30% Faster Crouch Speed),
“Visibility” (Level 2: 40% Less Visible),
“Movement Noise” (Level 2: 40% Less Noise),
“Running Speed” (30% Faster),
“Hip Shot Accuracy”
(Which at max lowers the negative spread impact of firing when shooting from the hip at Level 3: -15%),
“Weapon Recoil” (Level 2 -30% Recoil)
“Heal Amount” (Level 3: +60% heal amount.)
(Nothing OP about getting extra health from a Medkit.)
“Revive Speed” (Level 2: 50% faster revive speed)

Already I’ve listed 19 skills up above outta 48 already that don’t affect your damage or resistance outside of “Chemist” which is only 10% gas resistance. That’s 40% of the skills that you can have that does not make you OP.

Now lets look at the skills with just a little higher percentages based on what they are. (Meaning what they affect.)

“Stamina Amount” (Level 2: +50%),
“Stamina Recharge” (Level 2: 40% faster recharge),
“Weapon Sway” (Level 3: -45% Weapon Sway)
“Reload Speed” (Level 2: -30% Reload Time)
“Run And Gun” (Level 2: -20% spread of moving while firing)

As you can see with those skills the percentages are not all 50% & up. Outta those skills only 1 is +50% & that is for Stamina. I didn’t know having more stamina makes someone overpowered in a huge open world game. :laughing:

Now lets look at the skills that affect power (damage) of the player. Which these ones are probably the ones that everyone is saying is OP when put together but lets look at them a little more closely.

“Make 'Em Count” (Single Shot Fire with automatic weapons does more damage to components. Level 2: +10% Damage)
(10% is Not Overpowered.)
“Armor” (Provides an increase to your damage resistance)
(Level 1: +10 Bullet Resistance, Level 2: +10 Explosive Resistance, Level 3: +10% gas resistance)
(10% is Not Overpowered)
“Armor Damage” (Damage done to enemy armor. Level 2: +10%)
(10% is Not Overpowered)
“Trigger Happy” (Damage dealt with automatic fire. Level 2: +10%)
(10% is Not Overpowered)
“Flanking” (Increased chance of causing stagger when firing on an enemy that is targeting another player. Level 2: +40% “Chance” of stagger)
“Designated Target” (Marked enemies take additional damage. Level 2: +10 Damage)
(10% is Not Overpowered)
“Last Man Standing” (Provides a boost to damage resistance for every player that drops below 10% health. Level 2: 10% damage resistance for 15 seconds.)
(10% is Not Overpowered)
“Steady Feet” (Allows player to withstand stronger attacks without being knocked down.)
(Note: You still get knocked down. So it’s not getting rid of the effect…it’s only making it easier for you without breaking the game.)
“Health Amount” (Level 3: +30% Health)
(30% is not making you overpowered.
Note: It’s not 10% + 20% + 30% = 60%…No. At max you ONLY have 30% extra total health.)
“Explosives Expert” (Level 2: +30% explosive area of effect)
(Well…in reality explosives DO alot of damage & an extra 30% is not as much as what someone would consider overpowered)
“EMP Expert” (Level 2: +50% EMP area of effect)
(Same as Explosives Expert)
“Component Damage” (Level 2: +10% Damage to enemy components)
(10% is Not Overpowered)

“Salvage” (Level 2: 100% ammo increase) (Normally right now…most looting only gives you just a few bullets per backpack & other so when it says 100% increase…that means that if you’re only getting say 2-4 bullets per loot now your getting 4-8 bullets per loot which is NOT as much as when someone just reads the skill as 100% extra ammo.) (So again…Not Overpowered. Cuz even what it is right now…you can go to TONS of houses & still gain the same amount. The ONLY thing that this does is that it just lightens the search time a little if your trying to get say 100 rounds for your rifle. It’s not game breaking nor OP. It’s just a small little help & allows you to get back to action a little faster.)

Now for the big skills that are at the bottom of each tree that are kinda your limited time perks (so to speak) that WILL be at the top of everyone’s belief of having all of the skills in the game would make the player overpowered. Now remember that only ONE specialization may be active at a time.

“Marksman” (While active, it completely eliminates weapon sway when using any weapon.)
(In reality this really only helps players that play with Controllers cuz players that use a mouse are always way more precise with aiming. So basically…this is NOT Overpowered at all. If mouse never existed then yes…we could agree that this could be considered as a very strong skill that should be used lightly. However…try saying that to old school games that never had weapon sway & recoil. Players back then didn’t complain & the games were great.)

“Vanguard” (While active, it increases your damage resistance with 25%)
(That’s only 25%. It’s not that much. it’s like slapping on some body armor. So that’s not overpowered)

“Commander” (While active, deployed Field Radios can be used an additional 3 times. Total 6 times.) (Personally this makes no sense. IDK why we are being punished with putting a limit on these things since we can already use fast travel in the game with the safe houses. Basically they should just make these unlimited uses. If we weren’t on such a huge map…then this could be talked about…but the way that the game has been made…this should not be a skill & just be unlimited.)

“Medic” (While active, any player you revive, including yourself, return to the game with 100% health) (This is another debatable one. I can’t see this as overpowered at all cuz most other games out there do this. So this is really just a bonus. Not a overpowered skill.)

“Survivor” (While active, you may respawn on your corpse once per combat.) (Again…can’t be overpowered since right now we can just use an Adrenaline Shot & do the same thing about standing back up in the same spot. So if we fully die…normally we get pushed back to the last / nearest safe house. So this is just exactly like an Adrenaline Shot. So this is Not an overpowered skill.)

“Commando” (While active, the first damage dealt on any unaware enemy is increased by 15%) (15% is NOT that much. Most stealth games normally do 50%-100% extra damage on first unaware hit. This is a guerrilla warfare type game…so this should be a given to be in this type of game. Not overpowered.)

NOTE: This one is NOT a Specialization but it would be higher up on the could be OP status for people that believe that having all of the skills is overpowered…
“Remote Hacker” (Unlocks the ability to hack enemies. Allows you to hack enemies using your binoculars, confusing them temporarily) (Outta all of the skills we’ve listed so far, this one would of been considered to have the most impact. BUT wait till you read the next skill. Anyways…being that it is only just ONE skill like this that confused them…it’s not like your calling down a missile strike on them. This can be used for both funny / fun times & be used to help. If you need a balance for this…then they could maybe make it where you can only confuse 1 or 2 robots after X amount of time between each use of that 1-2 total at a time. But bottom line…it’s not OP.)

“Hacker” (While active, any remote hacking will cause enemies to attack other enemies.)
(This one “may” be considered the most OP to people that have problems with the skills. However…what is the difference between you attacking & them attacking each other? Well…number one…this can be used as a distraction OR this can be used to save a few bullets OR this can be used to give a little or a lot of help. It’s almost in a way like having a friend for a little while. There is no reason this should be considered OP by anyone.)

“Engineer” (While active, the player may scavenge undamaged Tick Pods from enemies & use them to deploy Ticks that attack enemies.) (Same as the last skill…this can be a distraction OR save a few bullets OR give a little bit of help. It’s like having a friend. Now before anyone screams OP to this one…ticks are the smallest/weakest bot outta them all. They are not gonna do hardly any damage to the enemy bots compared to your bullets. So this one is not OP especially since you need space to carry the Ticks.)

Now for the moment that you’ve all been waiting for…the reason WHY & HOW by having all of the skills DOES NOT MAKE YOU OVERPOWERED & does NOT unbalance the game not one bit at all!

Here are the total stats if you have gained every skill in the game.
(Excluding the Specializations since they can only be active one at a time & we are talking about total active stats that are always active once you get them.)

Health = +30% Total
Damage Resistance = +10% Bullet, +10% Explosive, +20% Gas = (Due to Chemist)
(Bullet & Explosive goes to +20% Damage resistance & +30% Gas once under 10% Health for only 15 seconds.)
Damage To Enemies = Single Shot = +10%, Automatic Fire = +10%, & total of +20% for components. Armor = +10% (So with Armor can go up to +20% by combining Armor with single OR auto fire.)
Stamina Amount = +50%
Running Speed = +30%
Crouch Speed = +30%
Movement Noise = -40% less Sound
Visibility = -40% less visible
Hip Fire = -15% At the negative spread impact of firing from the hip.
Run And Gun = -20% spread while moving
Weapon Sway = -45%
Weapon Recoil = -30%
Reload Speed = -30% Reload Time
Being able to withstand more attacks resulting in falling down less.
Explosives = +30% more range
EMP’s = +50% more range
Salvage = Can salvage a few more bullets at a time meaning shaving off a few minutes here & there over a long period of time resulting in being back in action more but not instant results. Also can salvage up to 50% damaged components which can get you some more ammo here & there.

All of the other skills are XP & quality of life improvements.
From these numbers…last time I checked…by having all skills does NOT make you OP & there is NO need to lock any skill from the player. Meaning…the best solution would be like what @Vasdema said about having so many levels give you so many points as you level up.

So lets say if there was 100 points needed to get all of the skills & the game only went to level 50. You can have the first 30 levels give 1 point each. (Total of 30 points so far) Level 31-35 give 2 points each. (Total of 40 points so far) Level 36-40 gives 3 points each. (Total of 55 points so far) Level 41-45 gives 4 points each. (Total of 75 points so far) Level 46-50 gives 5 points each. (Total of the full 100 needed outta 50 levels) They can stretch the leveling out so that you don’t get there so fast like alot of people have been claiming that they hit level 30 extremely fast.

As for the stats…to really help with balancing things out since everyone likes balancing…remove the bonuses on the clothing & just keep the clothing as cosmetic. That will also allow people not to be forced to always wear what they don’t wanna wear just cuz they want those stat boosts. I mean it’s nice…but by allowing us to have all of the skills it would be fine to not have the stats on the clothing. EXCEPT for the gas mask. Keep the Gas Resistant on that cuz it’s suppose to be that way. (Which I am thankful that the devs did make the Gas Mask useful instead of being just cosmetic like alot of other games do.)

Anyways to conclude the long book that I just typed up.
Anyone that is saying that we need to have skills locked to equal balancing & that having all of the skills would make the player Overpowered. Either you didn’t really look into the stats & you just assumed due to being so many skills. Or you missed a class in Math class cuz those percentages are not as much as you think. Even something being 30% is not much.

Here’s an example of % for those of you that don’t know percentages.
Say if you have a video game that costs $60 & there is a sale going on that the game is now 30% off…that means that the game is now $42. As you can see…the game is still over half of it’s total price. 30% only helped save some money…it didn’t make the game under half price nor make it free. Yet in your heads…it seems that 30% makes someone OP. Does it make sense now? So take that same logic into this game when looking at those stats.

Anyways…sorry for this being so long. I just really wanted to get the facts in there since people keep claiming that what I’m saying is opinions…yet I have only been trying to push the facts. (Note: To the posters in this topic…I’m not pointing any fingers or blaming anyone here. There is talk outside of this post about this post. The people know who they are.) Anyways I hope that this clears everything up & makes sense of what I’ve been trying to say. Originally I wanted to just have the original statement…but I should of known that…that’s not good enough since no one wants to actually look at the numbers. It’s ok to want to keep the level cap system in there…but to say that it’s needed is a total opinion. So don’t confuse my comments with your opinions.

Note: Again…no anger was put into this. I just want to get the facts out there. I was actually slowly typing this over the course of many, many hours today. So if there is some things that are a little outta place or a number is wrong somewhere then I’m sorry & I’ll try to correct any mistakes if there is any. This comment shows everything both by itself & together hence of of the little notes saying not OP…cuz it’s facts.

I thank anyone that took the time to read this huge book of a comment & again I’m sorry for it being so long & I wish I could of maybe typed it up a little better…but I do have a life to live & I don’t have all of the time in the world. :laughing:

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It’s not that any of the individual skills are OP. It’s all of them together at the exact same time that would be OP. Frankly, that doesn’t like fun to me at all, and if I could and did unlock everything all in one playthrough on the same character it would kill the replay value.

I feel you want to have your cake and eat it too a little bit to much here, and this just isn’t that type of game and most likely never will be unfortunately.

Sure you might not be angry but when you say things like “Or you missed a class in Math class cuz those percentages are not as much as you think” and “that’s not good enough since no one wants to actually look at the numbers” you’re insulting people and acting like you’re better than others. Don’t insult other people in the community you’re trying to be a part of. It’s absolutely rude and uncalled for meng.

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Great work looking up all the stats @NaturalGamer18, having them all listed like that shows how little they really do. Although I will say playing the game and adding skill points into categories I could already tell they have very little to almost no effect. The only ones I could actually see an in game change was the inventory and lock picking. The health boost basically does nothing and the only thing I see from it is my health restoring items restore less health. I’m a level 20 now I think, and I went up 5 levels without using skill points. I thought adding those would help a lot, but I couldn’t even tell a difference. The numbers don’t lie, you could start the game with all the skills added and you wouldn’t even be close to OP at all.

Saying all that @metafish, although I disagree with you, I completely understand your point. I see these kind of topics come up with many games and it’s not so much about level caps but how a person wants to play the game. I’m looking forward to Cyberpunk 2077 and seeing people argue over 3rd person and first person is crazy. Basically I want you to be able to play the game how you want, and let me play how I want. I find it ridiculous to create multiple characters to play the same game, but that is me. Who am I to tell you what you should or shouldn’t do in this virtual world. Myself, I want all I can get with a single run through the game. You brought up balancing, and to me I only see one reason this could be important, co-op play. I assume you would not want someone in your game that has all the skills added.

So my simple idea would be upon character creation allow the gamer to select capped or uncapped character. Then just add a basic filter in the multiplayer menu that you can adjust to block uncapped gamers from joining your session. You get to play how you want, I get what I want, all would be happy I hope.

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I understand both perspectives as well. Difficulty, accessibility, and developer intentions are a hot topic right now, especially surrounding Sekiro and games such as that.

Personally, in the case of Generation Zero, I feel that the previously agreed upon solution of having separate modes would be the simplest and least contentious one. Having a separate game mode that is a single-player sandbox where one could adjust various parameters about the the world, the character progression, difficulty etc. coupled with a multi-player mode which would be a static rule-set the way the developer’s envisioned and designed the game around, i.e. skill points, enemy difficulty, weather, day/night cycles, weapon/item drop rates, etc.

I feel this could appeal to everyone if executed properly. The “single-player mode” doesn’t even necessarily have to be strictly single-player. Call it a sort of Gen-Zero Arcade mode, if you will.

We also can’t take for granted the amount of time and work changes like these can take, and how much they lack in simplicity although appearing simple at face value.

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True, I’m not sure how hard a co-op filter would be to add. My reason for not preferring the other solution someone suggested is if I wanted to play with a friend with my uncapped character I couldn’t. What if a group of uncapped players want to play together? So once again we come across the matter of stopping someone from playing the game the way they would like.

The only counter at that point I think would be what you brought up, the Dev’s vision. To be honest I don’t care at all about that. There has never been a single game I have played that at some point I question if the devs have ever played games before. But ignoring my own way of thinking, and I’m not sure why I even added it. I am curious of how the devs did envision us playing the game and if to them would us having all the skills ruin their artwork. Do they feel it would be the equivalent of having a cheat enabled and if so how much does this take away from my experience. I know they expected us to die a lot or get downed otherwise would wouldn’t be able to self revive.

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Perhaps I was not clear enough when I mentioned that the separate mode I proposed as a potentiality wouldn’t have to be single-player exclusively. I was writing as my ideas developed in my mind. :slight_smile:

“The “single-player mode” doesn’t even necessarily have to be strictly single-player. Call it a sort of Gen-Zero Arcade mode, if you will.”

Simply an arcade mode separate from what could be called the “Original Mode”. That way there wouldn’t have to be an option to exclude “uncapped” players from being able to join your multiplayer game as it would be a completely different mode where one is able to design a rule-set for the world on their volition. This mode could simply be excluded from matchmaking and simply invite-only. You could still play with friends it would just a private world. A custom server in a sense.

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