Idea: Rework to Rival and Reaper spawn system

Feedback/Feature Requests
1

Hi

Here, i’m presenting my idea of possible rework to our current Rival and Reaper spawn system, so that it would make more sense.

Current Rival and Reaper spawn system is all tied down to the Region Score. Where the idea is: the more regular machines you destroy, the more region score you will collect and once the region score is high enough, you have a chance to spawn in a Rival. And once the region score climbs even higher, you can spawn in Reaper as well.

Neat idea, however, it has flaws, especially due to it’s implementation.

If you kill a rival, region score will also drop. However, since reaper is considered as one of the rivals and spawning conditions of a reaper are very high (region score of 13.000 and more), this leads to a silly situation, where when player wants to spawn a reaper, one must avoid killing rivals, so that the region score doesn’t drop.

My idea would completely remove Region Score as it currently stands. Instead, it would be based on machine kill amounts, rather than overall region score.

What would remain, is the fixed amount of “points” you get when destroying normal machines. Since latter is still needed to level up rival. Max amount of rivals per region, would also remain. And so does the limit of one active reaper. For balancing.

Rival spawn

To spawn a rival, player would need to destroy X amount of same type of machines.
E.g:

  • Destroy 40x runners - runner rival spawns
  • Destroy 20x hunters - hunter rival spawns
  • Destroy 14x harvesters - harvester rival spawns
  • Destroy 10x tanks - tank rival spawns

Rival spawns in that region where you killed the last machine that amounted the required net.

And to classify which class of a rival should spawn, game would keep track of which class of machine you destroyed and it spawns the same class as majority of kills.
For example:
If you destroyed 3x prototype hunters, 6x FNIX hunters, 1x apocalypse hunter, 9x military hunters and last hunter you killed was FNIX hunter, game would spawn in military rival hunter, since you’ve destroyed the military class the most.

Note: “X amount of machines” is just my example. It could be higher or lower, depending how difficult devs want the Rival spawn to be.

If devs would like to keep the current rival spawn conditions based on difficulty level, the same can be applied to my idea as well. Where current values presented are for Skirmish and for Adventure, they are doubled while for Guerilla, they are halved. Or in other words, player needs to destroy 80x runners on Adventure, 40x on Skirmish and 20x on Guerilla, to spawn in Runner rival.

Reaper spawn

This would be similar to Rival spawn system, but with a difference, where: Reaper spawns after you’ve destroyed 40 levels worth of rivals.

That would mean, that you’d need to destroy:

  • 10x level 4 rivals
  • or 14x level 3 rivals
  • or 20x level 2 rivals
  • or 40x level 1 rivals
  • or any combination of rival levels, as long as all rivals you killed, amount to total of 40 levels

Reaper spawns in that region where you killed the last rival that amounted the net of 40 or over it.

Note: “40 levels” is just my example. It could be higher or lower, depending how difficult devs want the Reaper spawn to be.

And difficulty level spawn can be applied here as well, where current values would be for Skirmish, values are doubled for Adventure and halved for Guerilla. Or in other words, player would need to destroy 20x level 4 rivals on Adventure, 10x level 4 rivals on Skirmish and 5x level 4 rivals on Guerilla.

This idea would give players a logical conclusion of destroying normal machines = same type rival and destroying rivals = reaper.

And it is also rewarding, for those who spend extra effort to level up their rivals and/or play on higher difficulties. Since killing higher level rivals means that Reaper will spawn much faster. And playing on higher difficulties would give faster rival/reaper spawns, if devs implement the different values for each difficulty level.

–
Aesyle

9 Likes
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I really like this idea. At the moment killing rivals works against the appearance of the Reaper. This is why I hadn’t spawn the reaper, I simply found it to be to tedious.

Having Aesyle suggested implementation makes the Reaper a revenger of the rivals not a substitution.

If the devs find the idea of a fixed appearance to stiff why not combine it with a probability. Destroying a lvl 1 rival has a very low chance (ask EA for chances) while destroying 10 lvl 4 rivals is close to a safe spawn.

2 Likes
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I’ll bump this topic to set things in motion. :slight_smile:
Some regions are very tedious to spawn a Reaper or accumulate and level-up rivals, because rivals just stay around most “hotspots” and player have to do rather time consuming roaming for hunting on patrols.
Or resort to exploits (harvester milking, beacon replacement, reloading realm etc etc). I’d say some people considered to go so low as to milking on ticks if situation call for that, but that’s even more bothersome than spawning Reaper at Archipelago.

Hunting aspect itself ain’t that bad - it have nice flavor to it, what ruin it is constant need to be aware of proximity to closest rival and G’d forbid startling it. And currently breaking chase is to die and spawn far enough or get even more machines on your tail into neighbour region.

1 Like
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This is also one of the flaws of current system. Since each machine has fixed “points” value, depending on their type and class, regions with “weaker” machines need more machines to be destroyed than regions with “stronger” machines.

Like you said, spawning a reaper in Archipelago is ordeal and i don’t know if anyone has ever done that. :thinking:
In contrary, Himfjäll region is the easiest region where to spawn the reaper since it’s apo class population gives the most “points” per machine. (I also spawned my 1st reaper in Himfjäll.)

My idea would negate this imbalance between regions completely, making fair chance across all regions. :blush:

This is another issue of the current system. Though, it doesn’t fall under the machine spawn system, instead, it’s part of the rival level up system, which would merit it’s own topic. :slight_smile:

But when to touch it lightly and give another possible solution for it;

The “points/XP” rival gains, depends on it’s class and what class of machines you kill afterwards. Where same class of machines as rival is, give the same amount of “points/XP” to rival; but lesser classes give half the “points/XP” and better classes give 50% more “points/XP” to rival.

E.g: FNIX rival

  • If you kill proto or mil machines, rival gains half the “points/XP” it would otherwise gain from kills of FNIX class machines (essentially, killing two mil class machines = same XP as killing one FNIX class machine).
  • If you kill FNIX class machines, rival gains normal amount of “points/XP”.
  • If you kill apo class machines, rival gains 50% more “points/XP” than gaining from FNIX class kills.

This would negate the region issue and instead gives a sensation of: killing “weaker” class of machines than the rival is, doesn’t level up rival as fast as killing same class machines, while killing “stronger” class of machines than the rival is, levels up rival even faster.
Though, since apo class is currently the “top dog”, apo class rivals won’t gain the “bonus XP” as lower rivals classes would get.

5

Me done that. For that Ainsley Harriot meme. Still have that Reaper there for display.

All that brainstorm is a good job, but I’d like boldly to shot you down on that with question: if we really want that point system, may be we need to rework this system as base, instead of trying to build new house on old foundations, which were proven to have flaws?
Points gain on destruction seems good to me as is and may be even left without any tweaks, but how to deduct points in way that makes sence, without breaking the game (I don’t want repeat of “inventory disaster”)?
My thoughts on pieces of mechanic, not a whole working system:

  • Decreasing points over time is a sound option, but as power-grind player, I’d also like to occasionally max lvl region and keep it that way for a long time, while I’m away;
  • or some low-income regions (SW of map) degrade would force to farm for waaaay more machines, than if points wouldn’t.
  • cross-region point system - neighbour region may or may not support/benefit from points
  • poitns as “currency” with sort of controlled “call-in”. Like respawnable beacons and we need to “fiddle” with it to call/lvl up a rival;
  • points deducted upon spawn/level-up instead of rival destruction;
  • points gain over time, decrease upon destruction
  • region level/XP should be “danger level”: higher it is - stronger machines appear, more and bigger patrol squads
  • Rival spawn and destruction cost no points, but leveling it up - does.
  • Rival spawn cost points, but destruction - doesn’t (spawn rate regulated by timer or points gain in one go, with latter resetting the former)

Again: we need to come up with how to spend points, and then to think up gain/expence balance.

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I don’t like the idea of a runner rival, seems too easy to grind up a few and one or two shot them with a hunting rifle.

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My rival/reaper spawn system idea actually removes all points that are to do with region.

Map view would only show the current region name and amount of rivals within the region. There would be no Region Score or Region Level.

Only place where “points” would remain, is the fixed amount you get per kill, which is then forwarded towards rival as it’s XP, to level it up. But like i said, that “points/XP” has nothing to do with rival/reaper spawn system. Instead, it is part of the rival level up system. And it’s better to be discussed in another topic.

Values presented are examples. If there is a feel that killing only 40x runners on skirmish, to get runner rival is too little, devs can up the count. E.g 100 runners, 200 runners, whatever would be the reasonable amount.

Also, this would bring the current very rare rival runner back to the game.
In my time, i have ever seen only one rival runner, and that too in random MP game i joined. :thinking:

8

This new system does nothing except give the player abit more control, and you dont have to avoid the current rivals.

I agree with that its just silly to avoid the rivals. But to have another grind system which just eliminates abit of RNG, with you having full control of which rivals to spawn is also silly to me.

To be honest its just flavour and really brings nothing new.

Why not make it super simple:

Keep the current system with these modifications on it:

1: Region score does not lower when you kill rivals.
2: Reaper do not not need 7 rivals to spawn (keep the RNG on it)
3: Region score is set to zero when the Reaper is killed.

If this seems to ez, then simply modify how much region score each machine type is worth.

To me, this is a bit better than the current system and much simpler to implement, and it removes the silly “Avoid rivals” thing.

The way I see rivals is that they are created because ordinary machines cant handle the player(s). Hence, killing a rival should indicate that they too cant handle the player(s) and thus should bring FNIX one step closer to sending in the reaper.

(this way of thinking might hint at another spawning system for the rivals, but lets leave that out for now, its fine as it is)

9

Fairly logical chain to spawn Rival and then Reaper. But what happens when Reaper is killed? Do you gain Rivals again if Reaper is not killed? How this system resets itself, so it can start over again?

Other thing, there is little risk versus reward. Just straight line that leads to Rival and Reaper spawn. Should player loose Rival if get killed? Or get penalty to killed machines amount?

Current system you can have lots of Rivals, and avoiding to kill them is part of the process to get Reaper. And if you accidentally or are forced to kill one, you face the consequences of region score drop.

My point of view i would not like this system in end, because i don’t want to spawn Reaper. So i would need to leave all Rivals alive to avoid reaper spawn. And this would disable my possibility to gain exp weapons or missing schematics.

10

When reading all this, it seems to me that a very small group of players want to change things in the game that maybe hundred thousands of other players would not like changed. Who knows? The Reaper system works perfectly well, to me. I have all regions close to 8 rivals, so reaper spawns are no problem.

Killing Rivals to get the region score up would be just too easy. Not killing them therefore, is harder, because they will hinder you in you quest to kill other machines and if you kill them anyway the region score will drop. Is it logical, or even silly? No.
There are many things not logical (in any game) Some things doesn’t need logic. Is it logical that machines carry human guns? Of coarse not, but it is needed for the players to get some reward for their effort.

11

After some time to digest the topic and re-reading some posts, I’ve concluded that this problem stems not from rival system itself, but how sloppily Reaper was duct-taped on that system.
By the lore Rivals were “evolved machines”. Currently they are HP+ and Loot+ buffed standart series.

If we cannot get 'em improved AI, may be at least give 'em non-standart modules? Like a rare model of Prot Hunter with mounted TearGas launcher.

That’s still point system, just a different kind, if it takes into account the quality of machines.

Back to Rivals and Reapers: current rival system is still up to discussion, but what is certain is triggers to spawn Reaper need rework. How about unbinding it from a region (since it a single entity per realm) and let it roam ALL over map, including separated islands? Second - about trigger: it has to be in a controlled fashion, but should not interfere with rivals spawn/destruction as is now. Like some other games do “pay fee - call for raidboss”. Or as maximum responce unit from FNIX, that emerges and actively moves to player’s location - spawned after N cumulative levels of rivals/xp worth of machines.
And please, no designated area - I like the concept of fighting raid-boss anywhere on the map to prevent getting it dull from using same envionmental tactics over and over.

12

Om my opinion the reaper should spawn when you have killed a set amount of rivals. Either a set number or total lvl. It spawns because they face hard opposition by the humans so they send in the cavalry. It just feels stupid to avoid killing rivals in order to get a boss fight. After all we are fighting to liberate the land and we don’t do that if we let easy pray walk around unharmed.

And for me rivals all to often join a fight I’m in and I have to avoid killing while I shoot it’s friends to scrap metal. Thats like resistence fighters in ww2 Only killing german soldiers but letting the SS captain live so he can call in reinforcments in the way of a Tiger tank. They would have aimed for the captain first so he can’t call in the tiger tank.

3 Likes
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Thing is, if you know how it already works (by reading this topic) then yes, it doesn’t bring anything “new” to you.

However, the idea is still a “new” feature since it isn’t part of the game as i’ve presented it. Moreover, it fixes several issues with the current system.

Your simple idea doesn’t fix the issues with the current system. Two of the biggest still remain:

  1. Killing rivals doesn’t translate into spawning a reaper in any way.
  2. It is still far more time consuming to spawn rivals and reapers in early regions (e.g Archipelago) than in late regions (e.g Himfjäll).

Btw, reaper does not have a requirement where you need to have 7 rivals. If your region score is high enough, you can spawn a reaper even when you have 0 rivals in the region. The 7 comes from the issue of reaper being counted as one of the rivals and region limit of max 8 rivals.

When reaper is spawned, you can still continue spawn rivals in same and other regions. Only limitation is the 8 rivals per region. And one active reaper at a time.

For killing the reaper, the counter of rival kills will reset. Meaning that after you’ve spawned reaper and kill 39 levels worth of rivals, then kill reaper and then kill one level 1 rival, the reaper doesn’t spawn. Instead, after killing the reaper, you need to kill 40 levels worth of rivals again, to spawn another reaper.

Also, without region score, there is no need to “reset” the system. System is constantly ongoing, and counting kills, where only limiting factor is the max 8 rivals per region and if you have reaper on the map or not.

True. :thinking:

Though, in current system, there is no punishment of dying. On the contrary, when rival kills player, rival is awarded extra 100 XP towards it leveling up. Many players have used this mechanic to their advantage, by leveling up rival fast.

Here, i’d leave this to devs to decide. :slight_smile:

Though, i wrote my idea of death penalty here: Death Penalty When Dying - #10 by Aesyle

Having active reaper doesn’t disable the experimental weapon gains and schems found from rivals. You can leave the reaper alone (e.g in North Coast) while you spawn rivals in another region (e.g Mountains), while still searching rival exclusive loot.

While it may work well for you, there are loads of people to whom it doesn’t work well.
Topic: Changing the Reaper spawn/drops

It makes sense that when mini bosses (rivals) aren’t enough to stop the player, then the big boss comes (reaper). Not the other way around, e.g: “i leave mini bosses alone to get big boss”.

Yeah, that’s the issue. Rival system, without reaper, works fine. It’s the reaper add-on that screws things up.

As far as devs are concerned, all machines should stick to their designated regions.

In the early days of rivals, all rivals wandered all over the map. You could’ve found e.g Marshlands rival harv in South Coast or North Coast rival tank in Mountains. However, this was not what devs intended and it got patched out in the last, February '21 update.
Every rival spawned after that update, will stick to it’s region. Older rivals, spawned before the fix, still roam all over the map (i have loads of such “old” rivals).

Since reaper is a big boss, it makes sense that killing rivals (mini boss) is the logical way of spawning it, while to spawn rivals, one must kill normal machines.

About that. There are predefined specific spots where reaper is allowed to spawn. It was also tweaked in: December Update - Patch Notes | Generation Zero

  • Changed the spawn location for the Reaper in some instances so as to not put it in areas where it was prone to getting stuck

Due to this, you won’t see reaper in the middle of Östervik or Hagaboda. While it would be fun to battle the reaper within city limits, it would easily get stuck there.

:+1:

I’ve had this happen as well and on many instances, after i’ve killed everyone else, i have to run away, to break combat. And then, sneak back to loot the destroyed machines. Or risk getting shot at or even killed during looting.

1 Like
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Hmm, how do I tell you. GZ is unfortunately not successful as you hope. The all time peak on Steam is 11.386 according to steamcharts.com, while the average player count was at ~1.200 in the last 30 days. Even it’s ten times on each of the console variant (PlayStation and Xbox) it’s still not that much.

Usually only the most passionate players are willing to create an account in a forum specific to one game. So you’re maybe right with the argument that only a handful players want it to change but when it comes to that kind of argument you can apply it to every request formulated in this forum.

Since I don’t have much time to play GZ (only a couple 2-4 hours per week) I didn’t bother trying to trigger a Reaper since it’s very time-consuming and I find Aesyle’s suggestion more fitting to my playstyle/time.

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@Aesyle That’s a belt-fed quoting machinegun, if I ever saw one. :slight_smile:

By “designated area” I meant “please no exclusive arena”, like FOA2 (Normyrra’s Circle of Walls), FOA4 (Bergfinken, where Reaper prop been standing) or somehow bordered Skinnabol Crater.
I get what you mean and what behind tying rivals to region.

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Well if that true, how can the devs claim 848 million hours played on PC. If I just take an average of a 1000 hours, I get 848000 players. Were they lying?

My point was that if the devs go changing things that some people dislike, they also change those things other people liked. Not to mention, all the potential bugs changes will cause. I like the fact that killing the rivals penalises your region score. It makes spawning the reaper harder, and indeed more work.

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Hmm, in the info graphic they just state 848 million hours played. There is no statement whether this is global or only on PC. And in addition this could be ingame hours :wink: It’s also not clearly stated.

True. This was my point with the thread Dear Devs: please stop destroying everything. I liked the original version better. Some liked the old inventory system better, some wouldn’t care about Plundra, exp. weapons etc. There is always a downside to change of course.

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Yes, change in the game initiated by the devs, moving forward, I do not mind a bit. I’m ok with the plundra, and also with the new Inventory system, since I never saw the other one. :smile:.

People often talk that some things do not make sense. I think it doesn’t make sense that, we, the resistance want the reaper to spawn. The reaper is introduced as a means to give the players a battle to look forward to. It just that. And just as uninteresting after 20 reapers as anything. If anything needs work it’s the game-breaking stuff, not that I experienced many of those, but others clearly do.

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:joy:

Actually, both the Plundra and inventory rework were initiated by the players, here in the forums. Since devs agreed with these ideas, they also got implemented.
Though, inventory system wasn’t the one players expected and many were (and still are) disappointed in the new, list-based inventory, over the old grid-based inventory. Topic about it here: New Inventory system complications

Many changes to the game are actually players initiated. :thinking: E.g in December Update - Patch Notes | Generation Zero, player initiated features were:

  • [Community Feedback] Added option to turn off heart beat sound when sprinting
  • We added directional signs in all major bunkers to help you avoid getting lost!
  • Rival name plates are now displayed for dead Rivals when aiming at them

Here’s the old, grid-based inventory:

20190429164241_1
20190429164241_11920×1080 334 KB

IMO, looks far better than the current list-based inventory system. :roll_eyes:
Sure, it holds less stuff but that was the charm of early GZ. :relaxed:

In any event, lets get back to the topic at hand.

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It might be cool if theres a mini boss, like a level 5 machine thats rare (but doesn’t have special spawn requiremtents/spawns the same as a normal rival - like a normal rival has a small chance when emerging to have the ability to go to lvl 5) thats gives you a run for your money. It could have the most damaging armaments for the type of robot (like a rail gun, and lore wise the rival could ‘hide’ whilst it gets special upgrades). The robot will still be a normal robot, just the hardest variant of said robot.